Journey To...Mesoamerica

Mesoamerica was a profoundly important region and set of cultures that arose independently in the region stretching from central Mexico to northern Panama. The pre-colombian cultures created powerful civilizations that flourished for thousands of years. Study of the cities and monuments of these cultures suggests these civilizations were on par with those found in South America, Mesopotamia, Egypt, and China. There were many cultures that thrived in the region, including the Toltec, Mixtec, and Zapotec to name just three. However, we are going to look at three of the civilizations most familiar to modern society.

Mesoamerica was a profoundly important region and set of cultures that arose independently in the region stretching from central Mexico to northern Panama. The pre-colombian cultures created powerful civilizations that flourished for thousands of years. Study of the cities and monuments of these cultures suggests these civilizations were on par with those found in South America, Mesopotamia, Egypt, and China. There were many cultures that thrived in the region, including the Toltec, Mixtec, and Zapotec to name just three. However, we are going to look at three of the civilizations most familiar to modern society.


It is the Olmecs, known as the rubber people who first rise to prominence in Mesoamerica. Olmec is the Aztec word for these folk; we do not know what they called themselves. What the Olmec left behind provokes more questions than it answers. Their empire flourished from 1400 to 100 BCE and they may well have destroyed their own capital. Religion, which will be a theme of all these civilizations, plays an important role in Olmec culture. To the Olmecs the earth, the sky, and the underworld were important and those place where they met, like caves or mountains and other natural spots, were sacred. Additionally the Olmec were great builders and left behind cave paintings, pyramids, and the striking stone sculptures of heads or upper bodies. The calendar of later cultures may have been first used by the Olmecs.


Following on the heels of the Olmecs came the Maya people. In addition to their magnificent cities the Maya have an important linguistic heritage. Although much focus is on the Mayan civilization of the Classic period (250 CE to 900 CE), the pre-classic Maya culture made significant progress in city building and other advanced cultural traits such as pyramid construction. As with the Olmecs, the Maya are a deeply religious folk. Kuhul ajaw, the kings or holy lords, acted as mediators between the people and the gods, performing important sacred ceremonies. The Maya calendar of course is something many folk have heard of and this is based on the advances in mathematics and astronomy. This civilization flourished until the late 800s when some mysterious calamity struck the Maya. The cities were slowly abandoned and by the time the Spanish arrive, most of the Maya are living in simple agricultural villages. Whatever the reason for their collapse, the legacy of the Maya has far outlived their civilization.

Perhaps the culture most are familiar with from Mesoamerica, are the Aztecs. Thought to be nomads from the north, the Aztecs established their civilization around their capital of city of Tenochtitlan. With excellent agricultural practices and a powerful military tradition the Aztecs began to dominate the lands and people around them. Under leaders such as Itzcoatl and Montezuma the Aztecs grew to a population of 5 or 6 million. The legacy of the Aztecs has stretched into our modern world in a number of ways. As with the Mayan languages, the Aztec language ,Nahuatl, continues on in many forms today including words adopted by the Spanish and English languages. This legacy, which stretches back to the Olmecs, is very significant to us as storytellers.


How would I incorporate these cultures into play? All seemed to share a profound connection to religion, especially gods and beliefs that included aspects of the natural world. Dragons, in the form of feathered serpents, appear in Olmec sculptures and symbolism, though there are no true records of Olmec myth. Myths surely were handed down to their neighbors however, and the beliefs meshed into subsequent religions. Mesoamerica was a powerful meta culture with a deep spiritual base. As a fantasy or science fiction region it would provide a fantastic base for adventure. Ancient ruins and mysterious precursor cultures enough to full several campaigns, the most interesting legacy may be their understanding of math, astronomy, and the world around them.

Ritual human sacrifice was a staple of life in many of these cultures. Normally we might label this practice as evil, though in the cultural context that may not be true. Instead of shying away from this idea, I would embrace it. I would not do so lightly or in a mocking way, but integrating the idea into your play with the maturity that is called for. This approach is not for everyone, but if you treat the source material and the people with care and consideration in your game, you will find the path that works for you. It might horrify outsiders, but native characters would likely not have any issues with it. Whatever direction you choose, I would avoid a B movie approach to Mesoamerican culture.
 

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Sean Hillman

Sean Hillman

MoonSong

Rules-lawyering drama queen but not a munchkin
No, Spanish speakers in Mexico refer to their language as Espanol, Spanish for "Spanish" :)

Mixtecan Nahautl is the modern form of the Aztec language still spoken in some areas of Mexico, but the dominant language of 95% or more people in Mexico and Guatemala is spanish. There's no language called Mexican. Mexican Spanish is sometimes used to talk about the particular dialect of Spanish, heavily influenced by Nahautl Aztec and American (USA) English, spoken in Mexico, but it's still Spanish.

When you are that off base on something as simple as the name of the language spoken in Mexico, and Mexico has the single largest population of Spanish speakers in the world, by the way, it's really hard to take you seriously when you warn against western culture getting it wrong when attempting to represent other cultures.

I wasn't talking about Spanish. The endonym in the majority of the dialects of the language that we not native speakers call nahuatl and Germans call Aztec is Mexican. So there is a language called Mexican.

 
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Olga DelTorre

Banned
Banned
I AM a native Spanish speaker, English is my second language, learned after moving to the US when I was a little kid.

But that's not the important part, what is is that you are wrong. I'm not trying to be personal or insulting, but you are misrepresenting my culture. Native speakers of Nahuatl, which are very rare as Spanish is almost always their primary tongue, call it Nahuatl or Mixtec, not Mexican. Take it from a central American, there is no language called Mexican.

As far as the endonyms used in Mexico by the native speakers, of Spanish, Nahuatl and Maya since those are the three major languages of native Mexicans, all three languages use the endonym (name of a nation or place in the local native language is what that means, not what foreign speakers call the languages locals speak) Mexico, which means "Land of the Mexica", another term for Aztecs.
 
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MoonSong

Rules-lawyering drama queen but not a munchkin
I AM a native Spanish speaker, English is my second language, learned after moving to the US when I was a little kid.

But that's not the important part, what is is that you are wrong. I'm not trying to be personal or insulting, but you are misrepresenting my culture. Native speakers of Nahuatl, which are very rare as Spanish is almost always their primary tongue, call it Nahuatl or Mixtec, not Mexican. Take it from a central American, there is no language called Mexican.

An indigenist group made a dialectal survey across the country a few years back. They went to all the communities and asked questions about dialectal differences. One question was about the name of the language itself. Mexicano was the most common endonym. Nahuatl was a distant second. In fact Mexicano was more common the more away they lived from the center
 

Olga DelTorre

Banned
Banned
You continue to stubbornly cling to a false fact even after being corrected, by a native speaker of the language, and you keep misusing the word endonym.

An endonym is the native language name for a place used by the people who live there. It has nothing to do with what foreign survey takers call the languages spoken anywhere.

Let me make this as clear and simple as possible, so you might get it. There is no language called Mexican. Not in the US, not in Mexico, Not in Guatemala. It's that simple. You're wrong.
 

MoonSong

Rules-lawyering drama queen but not a munchkin
You continue to stubbornly cling to a false fact even after being corrected, by a native speaker of the language, and you keep misusing the word endonym.

An endonym is the native language name for a place used by the people who live there. It has nothing to do with what foreign survey takers call the languages spoken anywhere.

Let me make this as clear and simple as possible, so you might get it. There is no language called Mexican. Not in the US, not in Mexico, Not in Guatemala. It's that simple. You're wrong.

Me-xi-co: In the bellybutton of the moon. Other way to say it in the center/core of the moon. Or more poetically "In the heart of the moon". (Don't you see what I did here? ). This fact was relied to me by one of the teachers that did the survey. He himself is a native speaker of the language, as were most of the people involved. They surveyed native speaking communities across the country. -mind you, just the country they didn't extend further away. (And endonym/exonym apply to both ethnic groups and languages not just places)
 

Olga DelTorre

Banned
Banned
You can make up all the incorrect data and fake studies you want, you're still wrong, and I'm starting to find your ignorance insulting.

And you want to caution the rest of us not to be disrespectful of other cultures?
 

MoonSong

Rules-lawyering drama queen but not a munchkin
You can make up all the incorrect data and fake studies you want, you're still wrong, and I'm starting to find your ignorance insulting.

And you want to caution the rest of us not to be disrespectful of other cultures?

It's fine if you don't take me seriously, I'm pretty silly. And it is fine if you don't believe me, I didn't make it up. -If what I said is not true, then I was lied to-. Just let me tell you, as you didn't get the hints. I'm not disrespecting other's cultures, this is part of my cultural inheritance, specially on my mother's side. I'm not a linguist nor an anthropologist, but I have some linguistic training and I've been in touch with anthropologists and read lots of journals. I've also learned stuff from scholars on the ancient cultures of the Anahuac. One of them even decoded hidden meanings in the Grecas -it's mindblowing-.

Let's just agree to disagree then.

Edit: Oh and I was born and raised in the country in question. And I live there. You could ask the mods about which country my IP address is from, or Joey, he knows my address.
 
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MoonSong

Rules-lawyering drama queen but not a munchkin
Just so you all know I wasn't making stuff up. Catalogue of the INALI with the internal name of all variants of indigenous languages by region.

http://www.inali.gob.mx/pdf/CLIN_completo.pdf

On page 239 (on the Appendix 3, different names for the same languages)
Lists Azteca, macehuali, mexica, mexicana, mexicanero, mexicano, and mexi’katl as some of the main endonyms. Also as minor forms Anahuac, azteca, mexicana.

Edit: Also Wikipedia agrees:

Wikipedia said:
The language was formerly called "Aztec" because it was spoken by the Central Mexican peoples known as Aztecs Nahuatl pronunciation: [asˈteːkah]. During the period of the Aztec empire centered in Mexico-Tenochtitlan the language came to be identified with the politically dominant mēxihcah [meːˈʃiʔkaʔ] ethnic group, and consequently the Nahuatl language was often described as mēxihcacopa [meːʃiʔkaˈkopa] (literally "in the manner of Mexicas")[16] or mēxihcatlahtolli "Mexica language". Now, the term "Aztec" is rarely used for modern Nahuan languages, but linguists' traditional name of "Aztecan" for the branch of Uto-Aztecan that comprises Nahuatl, Pipil, and Pochutec is still in use (although some linguists prefer "Nahuan"). Since 1978, the term "General Aztec" has been adopted by linguists to refer to the languages of the Aztecan branch excluding the Pochutec language.[17] The speakers of Nahuatl themselves often refer to their language as either Mexicano[18] or some word derived from mācēhualli, the Nahuatl word for "commoner".
 
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Kobold Boots

Banned
Banned
Maybe it's just me, but I can read something and understand what someone means. I don't expect people to be culturally and factually correct all the time and in most cases I can use my intelligence to know what someone means and presume that the default setting for most people is not to intend offense.

I've been back for about two weeks after a long break. Every thread that covers any sort of racial overtone, however minor has devolved into "look at how socially correct or masterful I can be with what I know that you don't. Clearly you're a racist." It's probably a sign of the times, but it's not fun.

Do what you will of course, I've also had my moments, but I wish folks would just chill.

KB
 

Umbran

Mod Squad
Staff member
Supporter
Just so you all know I wasn't making stuff up.

Now, consider, Moonsong, how this might have gone differently if you had come up with your citation *first*, and presented it, instead of repeatedly trying to just assert yourself as right without clear support. Think about how that might have improved the tenor and nature of the discussion.
 

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