Judgement For The Damned--Paladins, Vampires; What Price For Victory?

[Starglim]

From what I know of SHARK's campaign, raising the dead is impossible, and paladins are the authorities. Those two points shape the argument substantially.

Well, not really. Julia's dead and the vampire suffered a minor inconvenience. That's pretty clearly a loss for the forces of Good, whether she can be raised or not.

As for the tiefling, I wouldn't question the paladin one bit if he had hanged her on capture or after a suitable enquiry. That would be a lawful act and a deserved punishment for the evil things she had (presumably) done in Archerrus' service.

In the circumstances the killing was not an act of justice properly given, but a case of the guy with the sword either killing the nearest thing because he felt the need to kill something, or taking vengeance on another uninvolved creature for the vampire's killing of Julia. I call that chaotic evil.

 

[Pielorinho]

What if there's a policy for the paladin that the mook is responsible for the boss's behavior? This seems a reasonable outlook for a paladin: if you join an evil cult, then the sins of the cult weigh on your head, and so forth.

If the paladin operates according to this view, then the tiefling was responsible by proxy for Julia's death, and paid for it.

Daniel

 

[Volaran]

Welcome back SHARK!

I'm not sure how I would run that in my own campaign, but it seems consistent to the kind of uncompromising behavious paladins in your campaign are required to display.

I would suggest that had he leaped into action rather than announcing his intentions, there would have been a greated chance to save the hostage. The intent of paladins in your game, particularly if we're speaking of the Vallorean variety, is well enough known that I do not think it would have been considered any sort of dishonor.

As for killing the Tiefling, if he's empowered as judge, jury and executioner, he was well within his rights.

 

[Dark Jezter]

What do you mean? It's dated today. And besides, this is the second SHARK sighting I've logged in the last few days. Some other thread about fish, IIRC.

My bad. For some reason as I was reading the first post, my brain read the post date as SHARK's join date, so I thought the original post was posted in 2002. Oops.

Welcome back, SHARK!

 

[Dragonblade]

From what I know of SHARK's campaign, raising the dead is impossible, and paladins are the authorities. Those two points shape the argument substantially.

Yep. I have played in SHARK's game. There is no raising the dead. And paladin's generally have both divine and ecclesiastical sanction to act as judge and executioner when they deem such action necessary.

 

[S'mon]

Berenar gazed at Julia's bloody, limp body, before his eyes fell upon the Tiefling, Allanna. Berenar drew his sword and calmly walked over to Allanna, and simply stated "Your blasphemies bring a terrible reward!" before plunging his sword into her chest, and killing her.

This seems a non-sequitur to me; since Allanna had nothing to do with the death of Julia. I don't think paladins are bound by the Geneva Convention unless that's part of your campaign, but they are bound by their word, so if you give your word to a prisoner not to kill them you don't kill them. So whether this was ok depends on prior events. Killing Allanna was dumb anyway since she might have led them to the vampire's lair.

I think a smart, Lawful-thinking, Paladin would have swapped Allanna for Julia before the fight began. Especially so with no raising possible. This would definitely seem the "greatest good for greatest number of good guys" solution.

Overall I don't think the party handled the encounter well, they are actually in a worse position than prior to encounter (loss of valuable prisoner, loss of good Cleric), & I probably wouldn't award XP.

 

[Cheiromancer]

I like Elder-Basilisk's post. Some of the phrases remind me of old-fashioned moral theology textbooks... It's not every day that you see an ontopic post about imperfect duty and superogative deeds on a DnD message board.

I do not have much more to add. I usually try not to use a paladin's code as a way of railroading them. Which means that they have a choice in hostage situations; they don't have to accept the villain's terms. I also do not try to impose modern codes (like the Geneva convention) on them. A tiefling in service to a vampire has probably earned death many times over, and a formal trial would be unneccessary.

 

[Particle_Man]

Overall I don't think the party handled the encounter well, they are actually in a worse position than prior to encounter (loss of valuable prisoner, loss of good Cleric), & I probably wouldn't award XP.

Ah, but surely the party would be aware of the fact that, whenever they lose a champion for good in their party, another champion for good quickly arrives on the scene, "by the will of the gods". It is an objective fact of most D&D worlds, so I don't see why SHARK's would be that different.

Or was the cleric Julia an NPC? Isn't the whole point of NPCs to die at the hands of the villains so that the PCs can avenge the deaths of the NPCs? That is how it is at the beginning of most action movies: why would this case be any different?

And too bad they didn't have a druid to faerie fire the "vampire cloud" and follow it to its sacrophagus, and then wait around to stake the puppy.

 

[Particle_Man]

I think a *smart*, Lawful-thinking, Paladin would have swapped Allanna for Julia before the fight began. Especially so with no raising possible. This would definitely seem the "greatest good for greatest number of good guys" solution.

(emphasis mine)

Smart? Dude, intelligence is the Paladin's dump stat!

 

[sword-dancer]

Welcome Back! SHARK

or Julia would die.

There is nothing said of freedom, only of let her live.

1) How much do you trust a CE Vampire?
2) Even if you do, would you prefer be his prisoner, plaything or dead(In SHARKS World and a few others i know the answer)
3) How great was the threat the Vampire was for other people?

5) How wer the rules for Hostages for members in the Church and orders of Julia and Berenar?

Berenar gazed at Julia's bloody, limp body, before his eyes fell upon the Tiefling, Allanna. Berenar drew his sword and calmly walked over to Allanna, and simply stated "Your blasphemies bring a terrible reward!" before plunging his sword into her chest, and killing her.

With which reason Berenar justifies the killing of Allanna, without holding court, defining her guilt and considering punishment?