Judgement For The Damned--Paladins, Vampires; What Price For Victory?

[pogre]

Yep. I have played in SHARK's game. There is no raising the dead. And paladin's generally have both divine and ecclesiastical sanction to act as judge and executioner when they deem such action necessary.

Given this information I would say the Paladin was within his code. I do agree with S'mon who said it was poorly played.

AND welcome back SHARK!

 

[Lord Pendragon]

The question to ask is whether the paladin's faith considers the protection of the innocent or the punishment of the wicked to be a higher priority.

While this is a good thing to know, I don't think it plays into this situation. It seems to me there was pretty much zero chance the vampire lord was actually going to spare the girl. He'd take her with him as he escaped, possibly promising to release her once he's away, and kill her as soon as he didn't need her anymore. She was dead the moment the vampire lord got a hold on her.

I find the killing of the tiefling cohort more troubling, as the paladin killed a helpless prisoner.

I've never understood why people believe killing a helpless enemy is somehow more evil than killing one with a sword in her hand who can kill you back. If she deserves death, she deserves death, whether she's attacking back or tied to a tree. Here we have a tiefling cohort to an evil vampire lord. I don't think there's any question that she's earned her death. The paladin was well within his perview to deliver it.

 

[HeavyG]

As for killing the Tiefling, if he's empowered as judge, jury and executioner, he was well within his rights.

It's not a question of rights. It's a question of motive. From the way Shark described the scene, it's likely that the paladin, at that moment, acted on vengeance.

"Berenar gazed at Julia's bloody, limp body, before his eyes fell upon the Tiefling, Allanna. Berenar drew his sword and calmly walked over to Allanna, and simply stated "Your blasphemies bring a terrible reward!" before plunging his sword into her chest, and killing her.""

The prisoner was not going anywhere. She could have been judged guilty and executed by the paladin at any time prior, but wasn't. If her crimes at that moment warranted death, it would also have warranted death before the fight. What had changed in the meantime ? Not anything she had done. The only thing that had changed was the murder of the priestess by her boss.

Surely, even though these paladins are empowered as judges, judging people based on your own emotions at the time is still bad. Surely, they are told to be impartial before judging others ?

Now, I personally wouldn't fault the man for such a reaction, but I'm not a lawful god either. So if I was DM, unless the player could argue that his character's state of mind was not like this (and allowing the player to explain his character's state of mind and reason for doing this is important), I would say this was a chaotic action and require atonement. The paladin should have judged the tiefling as soon as they took her into custody. "You will live until you stop being useful or until you piss me off" is not lawful good.

 

[Elder-Basilisk]

The prisoner was not going anywhere. She could have been judged guilty and executed by the paladin at any time prior, but wasn't. If her crimes at that moment warranted death, it would also have warranted death before the fight. What had changed in the meantime ? Not anything she had done. The only thing that had changed was the murder of the priestess by her boss.

It's worth pointing out that, assuming that the tiefling was a party to the initial plot to kidnap Julia, that change would changer her immediate crime from an accomplice and a party to kidnapping to an accomplice in a murder.

 

[SHARK]

Greetings!

Well, indeed, Allanna was a contributor to the kidnapping of Julia. She was in fact responsible for luring Julia away from the encampment into a secluded area where Archerus then seduced her into his power.

The interrogations of Allanna were proceeding with mixed results, because while she is an important cohort to Archerus, the exact location of his inner sanctuary is a secret, from nearly everyone. Thus, she doesn't know precisely where his inner sanctuary is, and zones of truth and charming revealed only a little more than what she volunteered. From this, her usefulness had apparently begun to dwindle.

Having said that, I personally think that keeping her alive would have been better, tactically speaking.

Berenar's player explained that he felt that Allanna was guilty of Julia's murder, and keeping her alive a little while longer was merely a portion of restitution for her death, insanity, undeadness, or whatever, before being properly executed. The actual death of Julia in front of him merely hasted the righteous judgment. In addition, he really liked Julia, and was embittered at her death, and Allanna's smug attitude and snide little commentary about what her master was going to do to her. Thus, at that moment, his disgust and hatred of her and all she stands for reached a boiling point in representing his determination to root out evil and bring true liberty and righteousness to the world. That mission, in his eyes, would be strengthened and supported by the death and defeat of Archerus and Allanna.

Having heard that, and as MMADSEN and Dragonblade are both familiar with the paladins and the culture of the Vallorean Empire, I was natuarlly sympathetic. I'm still a little troubled by it, however, and am leaning toward maybe an atonement or something. I'm not sure. The character is saddened by Julia's loss, and has vowed to track Archerus and his minions down. Her loss is painful and sad, because his character was in love with her, and she was looking forward to having a family with him someday.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

 

[CrusaderX]

Archerrus had a young human cleric, Julia, held tight in his grasp. The vampire demanded that the players allow him to escape, and free his Tiefling or Julia would die. Berenar, a paladin of the group, said--

"Never, hellspawn! Death and fire shall be your portion and you shall be damned for all eternity for your blasphemies!"

Yes! SHARK is back!

May hellspawn everywhere tremble in fear.

 

[S'mon]

Her loss is painful and sad, because his character was in love with her, and she was looking forward to having a family with him someday.

Yet despite being in love with her, he made no attempt to negotiate for her release? :\
In a world with no raising, that seems very strange. In his shoes I'd have at least tried to swap Allanna for Julia.

 

[SHARK]

Greetings!

Yeah, S'mon, I'd have thought that he might think about negotiating for her, but I must confess that the group--as players--know that I run a harsh, ruthless and devious game. Thus, they have grown, while I would not say *paranoid*, they are nonetheless possessed of the assumed certainty that the villains will find some way or another to screw them. Having said that, I gather from the players that they had hoped that she would survive, and they could thus rescue her. They talked about striking *now* on *their* terms, while they were strong, as opposed to surrendering the *initaitive* to the evil vampire. They guessed that since the vampire was seeking to negotiate, it therefore meant that he was weakened, and *feared* them. Thus, by giving in to what the vampire wanted, that must have been what the vampire desired, and in the offing, they would somehow get the worst of it. So, they grimly trusted to the luck of the dice, strong arms, and, heh-heh, hoping for the best!

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

 

[Sigg]

Similar to what others have said, it sounds to me like the group simply made an ill-favored call in assaulting the vamp, but the "judgement" rendered by the pally on their captive was pure revenge and sounds to me like a no-no in your campaign SHARK. I feel what the pally's player was saying in his PC's motive for "judging" the prisoner at that moment, but as a paladin, I'd expect him to have better reign on his anger and frustration than that. IMO he gave in to the taunts of the tiefling and allowed his baser emotions to get the better of him. On the other hand, also IMO, this failing is not something that would come anywhere near causing the pally to "fall from grace". Maybe some stern admonishments via dream and/or portent from his patron and possibly a minor atonement quest assigned by a divinely-inspired senior priest of his faith would be the extent of the punishment I would assign....for the character the death of his loved one is going to be more than enough punishment as it is. If the character were to begin exhibiting a pattern of such behavior however...then we would have a more serious problem. What a great opportunity for the player. He could either repent, and perhaps become even more humble yet righteous in pursuit of his duties for the sake of his loved-one....or slowly slide down the path of anger and grief.....heh, great set up for future role-playing.

 

[The Great Bear King]

I like Elder-Basilisk's post. Some of the phrases remind me of old-fashioned moral theology textbooks... It's not every day that you see an ontopic post about imperfect duty and superogative deeds on a DnD message board.

I do not have much more to add. I usually try not to use a paladin's code as a way of railroading them. Which means that they have a choice in hostage situations; they don't have to accept the villain's terms. I also do not try to impose modern codes (like the Geneva convention) on them. A tiefling in service to a vampire has probably earned death many times over, and a formal trial would be unneccessary.

Frankly I do like the idea of imposing the Geneva Convention on paladins. They're not Nazis, they're not Communists, and they're not Mob bosses in plate armor. I think that medieval campaigns should be predominately evil with paladins as among the few bastions of righteousness in the world. Paladins shouldn't lower themselves to medieval standards. They should raise them. This is coming from a guy who doesn't like paladins.

When it comes down to Julia's death I can't understand what idiot would let this guy carry a sword and deal with matters of life and death. This guy is at least the Barney Fief of paladins.