Juggernaut..resurrected?

[DreamChaser]

OMG...i find you here too!

1)To have Class features you must have a Character Class.

2)Every Character is a Creature.

3)Creature can be only living or otherwise active being.

How can we say then that a dead creature (then a not-living,not active being thing) can have class features?

Yes I am everywhere LOL

This extended syllogism makes one basic assumption: that Class Features are things in and of themselves and not a category describing a host of things. A class feature can be a supernatural ability, an extraordinary ability, a spell-like ability, a feat, a skill bonus, spell levels, and a host of other things.

I think it is telling that there is no definition of Class Feature in the RAW because they are not a specific type of thing.

Thus, unless you can prove that a class feature is a specific, limited, definable thing, its inclusion risks making your argument fallacious.

DC

 

[Egres]

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Nowhere does it say the souls don't have class features nor does it say what class features are.
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?

Class features are explained in the PHB glossary.

Class feature: Any special characteristic derived from a Character class.

quote:
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Now, here is a thought. A Dragon Disciple. This is a class through which a sorcerer (or bard) underegoes a metamorphosis. Each level, they gain some change that ends in an apotheosis (total change of being). As he advances he gains class features that are also traits of a template (Half-Dragon). Eventually, he becomes a half dragon; in fact, in Savage Species terms, this is not unlike a half-dragon racial class.
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nope.

They get different abilites.

They grow wings even if they aren't of large size.

They get Blindsense.

Having similar abilites gained throughout class levels doesn't mean that these abilites are traits.


quote:
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And to go a step simpler:
If a body cannot have any feature's or traits because it is an object but when a body is reanimated by its spirit (using the proper magic) all class abilities and traits, save those lost do to level loss, are regained there are only two core explanations:

1) all features accompany the spirit/soul/life force and return with it.
2) a portion of them cease to exist for a time and then return when the reanimation is complete.
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You have mixed up traits and class features once more again.

The answer,IMHO, is more easy:they lose all of their class features, and then they regain all of their class features when they get raised.

the simplest explanation is probably the most correct

And i'm still waiting for someone that can help me understand how can a non-creature retain its class features.

My previous post is still waiting for a good answer.

And that post is solely based on the PHB glossary!

 

[DreamChaser]

i'm waiting for you to explain how an object can suddenly become invested with a bunch of class features that, by your argument, have ceased to exist. Nowhere in any other aspect of the game is any support given for class abilities (or any traits) simply vanishing into nothing. If I'm wrong, and there is mention of cases where abilities cease to exist, please tell me.

The only way I can see the class features of a character vanishing is if the character ceases to exist. Either the character still exists and can be brought back or they do not and cannot be. Of course, in the case of the juggernaut, existance does not permit resurrection.

DC

 

[DreamChaser]

I accept your syllogism. An object cannot have class features because it cannot have a class.

I do not accept that a dead creature is an object without some other portion existing to hold the sense of self that is returned when ther creature is raised.

DC

 

[Egres]

The only way I can see the class features of a character vanishing is if the character ceases to exist.

Exactly my point.

Since all characters are creatures,and dead creatures are no longer characters,they no longer have class features.


Note:since living or otherwise active beings are creatures, they must fit a creature type.

Can you tell me what type a soul would be?

Edit:A little thing to add:

From the Complete Divine:

The soul is beyond magic's power to detect or affect.

It's not incorporeal, it's not a ghost and it is not a creature of any kind with measurable staitistics.

No creature, no class features.

 

[DreamChaser]

Either there are two definitions or there are three. You need to decide:

Either there is only creature and object (of which dead creature is an example [but see below].

Or there is creature, dead creature (an intermediate state with features of both), and object. The verbage of the RAW support this one, IMO, not because of definition but because of lack of distinction. (but see below)


Now here's some word play for you:
If a dead creature is an object, then it has no Wisdom or Charisma score (3.5 MM p312 Converse of "Nonabilities")
A dead creature is an object. (3.5 FAQ p 19 currently, 17 previously Saving Throws).
Therefore: A dead creature has no Wisdom or Charisma and is not a creature.

If a thing is not a creature, then it cannot be a dead creature. (The definition of object negates the possibility of being a creature--dead is nothing more than an adjective--the two, as you have argued, are mutually exclusive.)

Therefore, by the RAW the term "dead creature" is a paradox, an oxymoron.

Thus it follows that any spell that targets a dead creature (Raise Dead, Animate Dead, etc) is invalid and in violation of the RAW.

DC

 

[DreamChaser]

In relation to your quote from Complete Divine, please keep in mind that nothing in that book is core. It is in fact a "suppliment providing options and resources for players" and DMs. Definitions provided therein do not override the RAW.

DC

 

[beeber]

i'm just glad neither of you are in my gaming group

 

[DreamChaser]

from 3.5 Player's Handbook p. 307
dead: A character dies when his or her hit points drop to -10 or lower. A character laso does when his or her Constitution drops to 0, and certain spells or effects (such as failing a Fortitude save against massive damage) can also kill a acharacter outright. Death cause's the character's soul to leave the body and journey to an Outer Plane. Dead characters cannot benefit from normal or magical healing, but they can be restored to life via magic. A dead body decays normally unless magically preserved, but magic that restores a deac character to life also restores the body either to full health or its condition at the time of death (depending upon the spell or device.

Things to note here:
It specifically mentions the soul leaving the body and traveling to an Outer Plane. This indicates that the soul has some purpose.
Nowhere in this definition of dead does it indicate that a dead body is an object and should be treated as such.
Repeatedly, it deals with dead characters/bodies as a unique type of thing, subject to their own rules, such as not being subject to healing magic other than that which brings creatures back to life, and decaying as we all know that dead bodies tend to do.
As the monk tells us, class features can override other features, such as a monk gaining unarmed strikes without penalty where as normal humans do not.

Just some food for thought.

DC

 

[DreamChaser]

i'm just glad neither of you are in my gaming group

I'm glad i'm not in my gaming group too.

Wait...that sounded wrong some how.

To me, it is all verbal sparing. If I tried any of these arguments with my group, I would be laughed out of town. I don't mean this to be flamey, but the whole premise is absurd but it is a fun kind of absurd. I'm enjoying exploring the rules.

DC