Juggernaut..resurrected?

[DreamChaser]

I'm only speaking of class features,not traits.

And i think that the Outsider trait triggers when it dies,and then it cannot be raised.

Treating a dead creature like an *insert type* creature,would mean that you can ,for example,cast Hold Person to a dead humanoid,cause it would still be a Humanoid!

But egress, you have made it very clear the a dead creature has no Type ("what type is a soul? and all that) and if it has no Type it cannot be an Outsider. You cannot have it both ways.


For the other half, there is nothing explicit in the rules preventing targeting a dead creature with most spells (healing subschool excepted by virtue of the dead condition). There is no reason to, but they are still valid targets. Most of them simply say "one creature" or "one humanoid" or similar. Nothing indicates the aliveness or deadness of that creature. Similarly, there is nothing stopping you from casting Bull's Strength on a petrified person. They would gain a raised strength but would not be able to use it unless they were returned to flesh.

DC

 

[Caliban]

Creatures are not objects and are alive.

Dead creatures have all the traits of a creature, except not being alive.

 

[Egres]

Creatures are not objects and are alive.

Dead creatures have all the traits of a creature, except not being alive.

How can we consider a dead creature still a character in order to have its class features?

I think that this is a grey area.

 

[Egres]

But egress, you have made it very clear the a dead creature has no Type ("what type is a soul? and all that) and if it has no Type it cannot be an Outsider. You cannot have it both ways.
DC

But in fact a dead outsider no longer exists...isn't it?

you need powerful spells to raise it.

Spells that don't care much of this kind of limits.

but the Outsider type states that:

Unlike most other living creatures, an outsider does not have a dual nature—its soul and body form one unit. When an outsider is slain, no soul is set loose.

 

[Hypersmurf]

But in fact a dead outsider no longer exists...isn't it?

Not necessarily. It could leave a corpse.

Now, if you're saying that class features are lost, then why do some of the PrCs which - as a class feature - give someone the Outsider type point out that since they're considered a Native Outsider, they can still be raised?

By your logic, once they're dead, they lose their class features... and hence are no longer Outsiders, Native or otherwise, and could be raised anyway.

So to use up paper and ink noting that Native Outsiders can be raised in the class feature is, by your reading, a waste of space... no?

-Hyp.

 

[DreamChaser]

How can we consider a dead creature still a character in order to have its class features?

I think that this is a grey area.

that is the thing you need to prove to us, Egress. The burden of proof is on you. Why do dead creatures (which as Caliban so eloquently said is simple a creature that is not alive) not have class features. You (no matter how many times you attempt to repeat it) have not proven this. You expect us to prove you wrong without first proving yourself right.

Everytime someone puts forth an idea that you cannot refute, you leap back to the "a dead creature is not a creature" which you have never proven because every argument you have made has had counterarguments.

I was ready to think I was just being stubborn but Caliban and Hypersmurf are seeing the same logical inconsistancies that I am.

So please: Don't just state it and expect us to prove you wrong. Prove it so that we cannot refute it. At THAT point, you will be right.

DC

 

[Egres]

Not necessarily. It could leave a corpse.

Now, if you're saying that class features are lost, then why do some of the PrCs which - as a class feature - give someone the Outsider type point out that since they're considered a Native Outsider, they can still be raised?

By your logic, once they're dead, they lose their class features... and hence are no longer Outsiders, Native or otherwise, and could be raised anyway.

So to use up paper and ink noting that Native Outsiders can be raised in the class feature is, by your reading, a waste of space... no?

-Hyp.

That wouldn't be the first time....you know.

 

[Egres]

My proofs are the one i have already pointed out.

From the PHB glossary:

Class feature: Any special characteristic derived from a Character class.

Character[...]The words "character" and "creature" are often used synonimously within these rules,since almost any creature could be a character within the game, and every character is a creature(as opposed to an object).

Character Class: One of the eleven player character types(list of core classes).[...]
Character class may also refer to a non-player character class or a Prestige class

Creature: A living or otherwise active being, not an object

 

[DreamChaser]

That wouldn't be the first time....you know.

That is not an arguement. It is statement of scorn toward the designers. It proves nothing and wastes our time.

DC

 

[DreamChaser]

Creature: A living or otherwise active being, not an object

Ah yes...active. Here is something that Caelic made a long and detailed argument on which you ignored...presumable due to a lack of ability to refute it.

DC