Juggernaut..resurrected?

[DreamChaser]

Since we've had some other posts, I'll chime in again:

Well,perhaps i'm too stupid to understand it,but i think that a character class is related to character,and all creatures that take character classes are characters.

I don't disagree with you but I think that dead creature is just as obviously related to creature. You cannot be a dead creatue without being a creature. There is nothing explicit in the rules to indicate this, just like there is nothing explicit in the rules saying that only characters can have character classes but it stands to reason.

But I agree with Hype: If you insist that we prove that dead creatures are creatures (an elementary consideration), then it is perfectly appropriate to insist that you prove that only characters can have character classes.

Darn gray areas.

This spells clearly states that the body/corpse and the dead creature are two separate things.

All you have done here is prove that the raise dead spell cannot work. If the body is different from the dead creature, then there is nothing to touch and the spell cannot work. Since that invalidates your argument that warforged jugs can be raised, I'm betting that's not what you intended.

Don't you remember that the same Caelic admitted that he thinks that this is a grey area and he can't say what type of creature a soul is?

Yes I do. I don't remember him conceding the "active" point to you. You never addressed it.

DC

 

[DreamChaser]

I forgot this:

From the Complete Divine:

The soul is beyond magic's power to detect or affect.

It's not incorporeal, it's not a ghost and it is not a creature of any kind with measurable staitistics.

I know,this isn't core,but i dodn't see it so weird.

I don't remember who pointed this out on the WotC board but this passage indicates that no magic can affect a soul. That means that the raise dead, etc spells are a direct violation of this because they bring the soul back to the body. The passage is not only from a non-core source, but it contradicts central aspects of the core.

DC

 

[Iku Rex]

A dead creature has all the traits of a creature, except the trait of being alive (because it now has the "dead" trait instead).

I take it this means that you need to beat a high-level monk's (or a drow's) spell resistance in order to raise him? What if you cut of his hand? Does that have spell resistance? Which remains get SR and which don't?

You cannot be a dead creatue without being a creature. There is nothing explicit in the rules to indicate this, just like there is nothing explicit in the rules saying that only characters can have character classes but it stands to reason.

Just as an animated object isn't an object, a dead creature isn't a creature. I find the idea that a rotting pile of flesh is "active" and has a Charisma and Wisdom score completely ridiculous.

 

[Iku Rex]

Allow me to explain why I think the juggernaut can be resurrected. (Aside from the "dead creatures retain all clas abilities" discussion...)

All warforged juggernauts have the "living construct" subtype. Among other things, this specifically permits the character to be raised or resurrected.

With regards to constructs, outsiders and elementals, the creature type traits spell out not only that they cannot be raised or resurrected, but also why. These reasons do not apply to warforged, even warforged juggernauts.

When it comes to the intent, why would the designer not spell it out if he didn't want juggernauts to be resurrected? It is obviously a big deal, as, if true, it makes the prestige class unplayable to many players.

And why would he make a decision like that? How does it improve the game in any way?

 

[Methos of Aundair]

Originally quoted by Iku Rex

All warforged juggernauts have the "living construct" subtype. Among other things, this specifically permits the character to be raised or resurrected.

I believe you brought this up in the WizCo board and I answered it, but I’ll do it again here.

ECS (page 23) states that warforged can be affected by spells of the healing sub-school, albeit at half-strength. Yet the prestige class specifically contradicts that very statement (ECS page 84) with the healing immunity class feature. Healing immunity states “… juggernaut becomes more like a construct and less like a living creature, it becomes immune to the effects of spells from the healing sub-school”. Interesting, this statement completely contradicts that of the one under warforged traits that specifically permits it.

Originally quoted by Iku Rex

… the creature type traits spell out not only that they cannot be raised or resurrected, but also why. These reasons do not apply to warforged, even warforged juggernauts.

But they do. Reread both Construct Perfection and Healing Immunity. Let me post them here for you.

ECS (page 84) Construct Perfection (Ex): A warforged that follows the path of the juggernaut seeks to improve itself by embracing its construct heritage. As a warforged juggernaut advances, it abandons what it considers the weaknesses of the living construct form to gain qualities more indicative of true constructs. While retaining its intelligence and sentience, a warforged juggernaut gains the following construct features as it advances in level.

Healing Immunity: Starting at 3rd level, as a warforged juggernaut becomes more like a construct and less like a living creature, it becomes immune to the effects of spells from the healing sub-school. In addition, it can no longer benefit from the effects of consumable spells and magic items, such as heroes’ feast and potions.

Originally quoted by Iku Rex

And why would he make a decision like that? How does it improve the game in any way?

This, I’m not for sure. I wonder if it is their way to attempt to balance the juggernaut out. My reasoning? Simple, look at everything the juggernaut is immune to after a 5 level prestige class.

No longer subject to non-lethal damage or extra damage from critical hits. Immune to mind-affecting spells and abilities (charms, compulsions, phantasms, patterns, and morale effects). Immune to death effects and necromancy effects. No longer subject to ability damage or ability drain. Plus obviously, any abilities gained by already being a warforged.

 

[Egres]

All you have done here is prove that the raise dead spell cannot work. If the body is different from the dead creature, then there is nothing to touch and the spell cannot work. Since that invalidates your argument that warforged jugs can be raised, I'm betting that's not what you intended.

1)I'm not here to "win",as someone in some boards like to do.

I'm here to find the truth.

2)The body is different from the creature,yes,and then this prove that the raise dead is bad worded.

And then we could raise a Juggernaut,cause the dead creature is only an object.

Yes I do. I don't remember him conceding the "active" point to you. You never addressed it.

Actually,he said that since "souls" can say yes or no,they think and then they are active.

Ok:english isn't my first language,and then fight with semantic jokes isn't easy at all,but i'll try the same.

If we read the PHB's glossary definition of Creature,we find that it must be a Living or otherwise Active being thing.

Note:the primary requisite is that the thing must be Living.

But the PHB writers know that there are types of creature that can interact with the world but aren't "alive":constructs and undeads.

The "otherwise active being" is obviously,by the spirit of the rules, refered to these creatures.

Otherwise,a Living creature that dies would become...an active being?!?

And only because it can answer yes or no to a bad worded spell?!?

If this isn't against the spirit of the rules, i don't know what "against the spirit of the rules" means.

I don't remember who pointed this out on the WotC board but this passage indicates that no magic can affect a soul. That means that the raise dead, etc spells are a direct violation of this because they bring the soul back to the body. The passage is not only from a non-core source, but it contradicts central aspects of the core.

Only because you say that dead creature are souls.

The passage refers to dead creatures, something that you didn't define yet.

And note that i can show you that dead creatures and souls are different things,using the so much loved Raise Dead spell.

Raise Dead
Conjuration (Healing)
Level: Clr 5
Components: V, S, M, DF
Casting Time: 1 minute
Range: Touch
Target: Dead creature touched
Duration: Instantaneous
Saving Throw: None; see text
Spell Resistance: Yes (harmless)
You restore life to a deceased creature. [...] In addition, the subject’s soul must be free and willing to return. If the subject’s soul is not willing to return, the spell does not work; therefore, a subject that wants to return receives no saving throw.

 

[Egres]

No longer subject to non-lethal damage or extra damage from critical hits. Immune to mind-affecting spells and abilities (charms, compulsions, phantasms, patterns, and morale effects). Immune to death effects and necromancy effects. No longer subject to ability damage or ability drain. Plus obviously, any abilities gained by already being a warforged.

Hhmm...
I don't like to speak outside the rules,but....these abilites need an impressive drawback like the lack of possibility to be resurrected?

Interesting.

 

[Kalanyr]

So if a dead creature is not the body (which is an object (not a creature and hence not a dead creature) according to you) and is not a soul (which belongs in some fashion to the dead creature), what pray tell is the dead creature and does one touch it ?

 

[DreamChaser]

alright. i've decided that enough is enough. after admitting that this falls into a grey area, the founder of this post has indicated that he is searching for the truth. he argues that the spell he is trying to work around is poorly worded to refute every point made against him. he refuses to acknowledge any argument he cannot refute, on the grounds that he is not here to "win"

I had never actually read the description of the Warforged Juggernaut...I was going based upon vague descriptions and general rules. Now seeing the text, there are only two reasonable options:

1) accept that Warforged Jugs become constructs and thus (like outsiders) have nothing to raise from the dead.

or

2) house rule that they retain the ability to be raised for the same reason that monks who reach 20th level still can be--the essence of what made them able to be resurrected is still there.

It is really a very simple choice that has no connection to "object", "creature", etc.

Have fun all. I'm signing off.

DC

 

[Methos of Aundair]

To be honest, and I am not being disrespectful Egres, but I don’t believe Egres really cares about roleplaying aspects, basis/reason of the prestige class, or anything logical or common sense wise in this specific thread. I’m not saying otherwise Egres, but only pertaining to this particular thread. Though I am curious how Egres feels, in general, without using the RAW, his actual thoughts on the class. Either way, that really doesn’t pertain to the question at hand.

@Dreamchaser

I agree with you on many parts, one of the reasons I haven’t been posting in the past several days. Sorry to have you leave the thread, I really looked forward to your arguments. In my opinion, you have done a great job.

1) accept that Warforged Jugs become constructs and thus (like outsiders) have nothing to raise from the dead.

This is my belief on what happens to the juggernaut. In advancing in the class the “essence” of his soul is lost/disappears/destroyed/whatever. And it is this reason why the juggernaut is unable to be raised/resurrected. Unfortunately, this is opinion, and this thread is attempting to base it on the RAW.