Juggernaut..resurrected?

[Egres]

1)You didn't answer to my question

2)Didn't we agree that a dead creature is different from the corpse,that is an object?

3)From the SRD:

. Anything with no Wisdom score is an object, not a creature. Anything without a Wisdom score also has no Charisma score.

This doesn't mean that all objects lack a Wisdom or Charisma score.

However,even if there's a lack of definition in the RAW,we can clearly state by the RAW that a dead creature isn't a creature,has no type,and has no class feature.

And then,a dead Juggernaut no longer has its Healing Immunity and thus can be raised.

Edit:dream chaser,i have a request for you..instead of posting your answers here and on WotC boards,can you simply allow Enworld posters to reply to this thread?

In fact,i'm here to hear more voices about this matter,and reading 2 times your posts doesn't help me much.

Thank you in advance.

 

[DreamChaser]

2)Didn't we agree that a dead creature is different from the corpse,that is an object?

3)From the SRD:

. Anything with no Wisdom score is an object, not a creature. Anything without a Wisdom score also has no Charisma score.

This doesn't mean that all objects lack a Wisdom or Charisma score.

However,even if there's a lack of definition in the RAW,we can clearly state by the RAW that a dead creature isn't a creature,has no type,and has no class feature.

And then,a dead Juggernaut no longer has its Healing Immunity and thus can be raised.

If a dead creature is not a creature but is not an object what is it? My verbal tapdancing was not intended to actually make an argument but to highlight the flaws in yours.

Unless you are claiming that the undefined thing known as "dead creature" which is not the body (an object) but is not a creature (because you don't accept that dead is a condition) is, be virtue of being undefined, unable to suffer the drawback you wish to avoid but able to reap the benefits of not fitting into any other category.

 

[DreamChaser]

and in direct answer to your question:
What creature type is a soul?

I can't tell you that but I can tell you what type a dead creature is:

From the Reincarnate spell
Target: dead creature touched
For a humanoid creature, the new incarnation is determined using the following table. For nonhumanoid creatures, a similar table of creatures of the same type should be created.

A dead creature's type does not change.

Note that it does not say "For a dead creature that was once humanoid, the new incarnation is determined..."

The verbage clearly states that type has not changed.

Thus a dead creature has a type

Thus a dead creature is a creature

Thus a dead creature has a class

Thus a dead creature has class features.

How could I possibly demonstrate this in more ways?

DC

 

[the Jester]

Wow, this thread is fun reading.

Now where's hong when you need 'im?

 

[Egres]

and in direct answer to your question:
What creature type is a soul?

I can't tell you that but I can tell you what type a dead creature is:


A dead creature's type does not change.

Note that it does not say "For a dead creature that was once humanoid, the new incarnation is determined..."

The verbage clearly states that type has not changed.

Thus a dead creature has a type

Thus a dead creature is a creature

Thus a dead creature has a class

Thus a dead creature has class features.

How could I possibly demonstrate this in more ways?

DC

Exactly:

For a humanoid creature, the new incarnation is determined using the following table. For nonhumanoid creatures, a similar table of creatures of the same type should be created.
The new incarnation is the point.

The dead creature is a thing i cannot define,cause it's not an object,but we can be sure it's not a Living or otherwise active being,and then a soul isn't a creature.

And then it doesn't have any class features.

And what kind of creature would it be?

Aarrghh..where's Hypersmurf?

 

[Egres]

Aberration Type: An aberration has a bizarre anatomy, strange abilities, an alien mindset, or any combination of the three.

Aberrations eat, sleep, and breathe.

Unless you try to say that souls have a bizarre anatomy,or that they sleep or breath or eat,they cannot be Aberrations.

Animal Type: An animal is a living, nonhuman creature, usually a vertebrate with no magical abilities and no innate capacity for language or culture.

Living.

Construct Type: A construct is an animated object or artificially constructed creature

Animated object?

Artificially constructed creature?

No souls here.

Dragon Type: A dragon is a reptilelike creature, usually winged, with magical or unusual abilities.
Dragons eat, sleep, and breathe

Do dead humans become Dragons?

And they sleep,breath ,eat and so on.



Elemental Type: An elemental is a being composed of one of the four classical elements: air, earth, fire, or water
[..]Unlike most other living creatures.
Elementals ?

They are living creatures.



Fey Type: A fey is a creature with supernatural abilities and connections to nature or to some other force or place. Fey are usually human-shaped.
Fey eat, sleep, and breathe.
Same as above.

And they are living creatures.

Giant Type: A giant is a humanoid-shaped creature of great strength, usually of at least Large size.
Giants eat, sleep, and breathe.
Same as above.

(funny:imagine a little hamster that becomes a Large humanoid-shaped creature after death!)



Humanoid Type: A humanoid usually has two arms, two legs, and one head, or a humanlike torso, arms, and a head. Humanoids have few or no supernatural or extraordinary abilities, but most can speak and usually have well-developed societies. They usually are Small or Medium. Humanoids breathe, eat, and sleep.
Same as above.

(an ooze that become a Humanoid after death?ahahah!)

Magical Beast Type: Magical beasts are similar to animals but can have Intelligence scores higher than 2. Magical beasts usually have supernatural or extraordinary abilities, but sometimes are merely bizarre in appearance or habits.
Magical beasts eat, sleep, and breathe.
The list of living creature continues....or can we imagine that a dead creature becomes a living creature?!?

Monstrous Humanoid Type: Monstrous humanoids are similar to humanoids, but with monstrous or animalistic features. They often have magical abilities as well.
Monstrous humanoids eat, sleep, and breathe.
The same.

Ooze Type: An ooze is an amorphous or mutable creature, usually mindless.
Oozes eat and breathe, but do not sleep
Mindless!!!

However,they eat and breathe.

Outsider Type: An outsider is at least partially composed of the essence (but not necessarily the material) of some plane other than the Material Plane. Some creatures start out as some other type and become outsiders when they attain a higher (or lower) state of spiritual existence.
This could be by the last sentence,but....
Unlike most other living creatures....


Plant Type: This type comprises vegetable creatures
Plants breathe and eat, but do not sleep.
Breathe and sleep.

(ha!a huge elephant that becomes a plant!)

However,they are still living creatures.

Undead Type: Undead are once-living creatures animated by spiritual or supernatural forces.
Do dead creatures become automatically undeads?!?

Vermin Type: This type includes insects, arachnids, other arthropods, worms, and similar invertebrates.
Vermin breathe, eat, and sleep.
Here they return..living creatures.


Well,it seems that souls cannot fit any type...so:
No type,no creature,no class features

 

[DreamChaser]

Exactly:

For a humanoid creature, the new incarnation is determined using the following table. For nonhumanoid creatures, a similar table of creatures of the same type should be created.
The new incarnation is the point.

My point exactly. FOR A HUMANOID CREATURE...

Either this spell is designed to be used on the living (which it specificically says it cannot be) or dead creatures retain their type.

And for you information...a list is not an argument. A list is uninterpreted information. You're clever jokes are not arguments they are appealing to a sense of absurd humor to lure the reader into agreeing with you because of course the idea of an animal having a humanoid soul is silly. Honestly the idea of an animal having anything but an animal soul is silly.

DC

 

[Hypersmurf]

Aarrghh..where's Hypersmurf?

Well, I'd look at something like an Outsider, which has a trait that says it can't be raised.

Are you suggesting that a dead Deva is no longer an Outsider, and therefore doesn't have that trait, and therefore can be raised? That an Outsider can only not be raised while it's alive?

-Hyp.

 

[Kalanyr]

There's also weird bits were class features change a creatures body or Type, which would have very strange results if class features ceased to exist on death.

eg Dragon disciples ungrowing wings, or the elemental savant becoming not an Elemental. Of course these can also be lost through level loss which is even weirder.

 

[Egres]

Well, I'd look at something like an Outsider, which has a trait that says it can't be raised.

Are you suggesting that a dead Deva is no longer an Outsider, and therefore doesn't have that trait, and therefore can be raised? That an Outsider can only not be raised while it's alive?

-Hyp.

I'm only speaking of class features,not traits.

And i think that the Outsider trait triggers when it dies,and then it cannot be raised.

Treating a dead creature like an *insert type* creature,would mean that you can ,for example,cast Hold Person to a dead humanoid,cause it would still be a Humanoid!