D&D 5E JUIBLEX

[CapnZapp]

I realize that is the range of OotA, but the intent of that campaign is that you don't fight Juiblex (not saying that is correct) and even when you get to lvl 15 your only supposed to fight a severely weakened Demon Lord (half HP if I remember correctly). Personally I think a CR 23+ Juiblex should be a challenge for lvl 16-20 party IMO

Not to bash the adventure module, but I'm finding that it consistently and severely underestimates the power of my party at least.

(I said I wouldn't bash the module, and so let me be clear I'm not saying this is wrong in any way. I find it quite natural that the module's baseline is for the expected power levekl of those that need the most advice: new-ish players and not-very-experienced DMs. Also, I'm not relating details about my party to brag. In fact: if jaded old veterans with high analytical skills and 20 years each of experience using and abusing D&D rules can't "break" a published campaign, wouldn't that be the really strange thing?)

When they reached Blingdenstone, the entire threat of the Pudding King and his court felt very underleveled. They were only level 4 when they started and when they were level 5 at the end, I didn't even run the combats, because they would have been a foregone conclusion with little challenge or excitement.

My party wiped the floor with Mistress Ilvara and her team at level 6. The book cautions the DM not to use her enounter below level 8, and even then it includes several tips on making things easier.

Even for a fairly experienced DM like me, it's hard not to flinch when a CR 23 threat isn't automatically and immediately considered a death trap for a party less than half its level. It sure takes some getting used to...


But my point here is simply: you can't (only) use the DMG guidelines and tables as your starting point. You can't simply accept it at face value when the module "assumes" and "supposes" this or that.

You say you're supposed to fight only a single demon lord, and only at half strength at that. And that would be true: yes, that is the assumption.

But that doesn't mean it will go down that way in practice. I haven't looked in detail at all demon lords, but a casual glance immediately tells me that a bloke like Orcus has access to several tricks that Juiblex doesn't even come to close to. Having 500 hit points of undeath to use is a huga advantage when it comes to flexibility, and flexibility is what you need to not get kited or cheesed to death.

My party can already dish out 100 points of damage when focusing their fire. Mistress Ilvara the Drow Priestess got to experience this firsthand.

In any encounter where Juiblex is surrounded by level-appropriate lieutenants all my concerns vanish instantly. If his encounter could be padded out by something as humble (for him, anyway) as a pair of CR 12 critters, that alone would probably wreck all chances of success for the party: it would double the amount of enemy HP, and it would probably rougly double the amount of enemy actions too. Factors that would make the fight exceedingly bloody and insanely dangerous for this level 11 party.

But all by himself, not in his lair, without a brain to use tactics or even to flee, yes I could easily see him going down in 3-4 rounds. In that time, he would barely be able to make a hundred points of damage himself, which isn't nearly enough to break the determination of a level 11 party. (It could very well be enough to down or even kill both one and two PCs, but that would surely be considered acceptable if you could add "demon lord slayer" to your resume, amirite?)

 

[CapnZapp]

3) Perhaps this is to reductive, but are you think this should be a medium, hard, deadly fight? This is related to comment #2 of course as what is deadly for lvl 11 might be medium or less for level 16. You've mentioned it last 5 rounds min., but that is really just a time issue, not necessarily a danger one (though they are definitely related).

Are you taking about medium, hard, deadly the descriptive categories of combat difficulty, or are you talking about the calculated labels of enemy XP per party level things?

As you say yourself, we can't say Juiblex is supposed to be a medium fight, since that depends on the average party level, the number of PCs and the combat prowess of those PCs.

Hmmm... I seem to have lost my train of thought.

Could you ask your question again?

 

[dave2008]

Are you taking about medium, hard, deadly the descriptive categories of combat difficulty, or are you talking about the calculated labels of enemy XP per party level things?

As you say yourself, we can't say Juiblex is supposed to be a medium fight, since that depends on the average party level, the number of PCs and the combat prowess of those PCs.

Hmmm... I seem to have lost my train of thought.

Could you ask your question again?

The descriptive categories.

 

[dave2008]

Not to bash the adventure module, but I'm finding that it consistently and severely underestimates the power of my party at least.

(I said I wouldn't bash the module, and so let me be clear I'm not saying this is wrong in any way. I find it quite natural that the module's baseline is for the expected power levekl of those that need the most advice: new-ish players and not-very-experienced DMs. Also, I'm not relating details about my party to brag. In fact: if jaded old veterans with high analytical skills and 20 years each of experience using and abusing D&D rules can't "break" a published campaign, wouldn't that be the really strange thing?)

When they reached Blingdenstone, the entire threat of the Pudding King and his court felt very underleveled. They were only level 4 when they started and when they were level 5 at the end, I didn't even run the combats, because they would have been a foregone conclusion with little challenge or excitement.

My party wiped the floor with Mistress Ilvara and her team at level 6. The book cautions the DM not to use her enounter below level 8, and even then it includes several tips on making things easier.

Even for a fairly experienced DM like me, it's hard not to flinch when a CR 23 threat isn't automatically and immediately considered a death trap for a party less than half its level. It sure takes some getting used to...


But my point here is simply: you can't (only) use the DMG guidelines and tables as your starting point. You can't simply accept it at face value when the module "assumes" and "supposes" this or that.

You say you're supposed to fight only a single demon lord, and only at half strength at that. And that would be true: yes, that is the assumption.

But that doesn't mean it will go down that way in practice. I haven't looked in detail at all demon lords, but a casual glance immediately tells me that a bloke like Orcus has access to several tricks that Juiblex doesn't even come to close to. Having 500 hit points of undeath to use is a huga advantage when it comes to flexibility, and flexibility is what you need to not get kited or cheesed to death.

My party can already dish out 100 points of damage when focusing their fire. Mistress Ilvara the Drow Priestess got to experience this firsthand.

In any encounter where Juiblex is surrounded by level-appropriate lieutenants all my concerns vanish instantly. If his encounter could be padded out by something as humble (for him, anyway) as a pair of CR 12 critters, that alone would probably wreck all chances of success for the party: it would double the amount of enemy HP, and it would probably rougly double the amount of enemy actions too. Factors that would make the fight exceedingly bloody and insanely dangerous for this level 11 party.

But all by himself, not in his lair, without a brain to use tactics or even to flee, yes I could easily see him going down in 3-4 rounds. In that time, he would barely be able to make a hundred points of damage himself, which isn't nearly enough to break the determination of a level 11 party. (It could very well be enough to down or even kill both one and two PCs, but that would surely be considered acceptable if you could add "demon lord slayer" to your resume, amirite?)

I'm not sure what this comment is about. I expected the response to be more like: "No you misunderstood, I don't want to design Juiblex, I want to design Juiblex for this particular encounter for my particular group." What I'm getting at is that the reason to design Juiblex for a lvl 11-16 party is adventure specific and I am interested in designing Juiblex adventure independent. Once Juiblex is designed you can then modifying him and or the adventure to fit.

The OP is about, I thought, creating Juiblex (and to me, by extension, demon lords or epic monsters in general) that can take on a well equipped, well organized, and at least somewhat optimized party of 5 (I would prefer 4, but that is not what you stated). I thought the point was to discuss different thoughts and strategies to get that done.

 

[dave2008]

Dave2008:

Most of my questions are going to be answered by "because that's the situation in my current Out of the Abyss campaign". Just as a fair warning

1) I have 5 PCs, but the answer doesn't end there. The DMG guidelines pretty much doesn't differentiate between four or five characters. In fact, the combat encounter building guidelines assume a party of three to five. Basing calculations on five, then, seems the prudent choice. Remember, in my goals I state "better one round more than one round less" when I discuss combat length.

2) Juiblex appears as a wandering monster random table result, and he can appear as early as level 10 (roughly speaking, each chapter correspons to a level of xp). The credit for bringing this to my attention, by the way, should go to the excellent (and spoiler-filled!) Out of the Abyss summary and walkthrough at The Power Score blog.

There, it states "lf the characters stumble upon Juiblex and flee immediately, the demon lord doesn't pursue or attack them."

But my mind was going in a completely different direction: looking at his stats at page 242, I found it not inconcievable my party could seriously challenge him already at their current level (7). Imagine the anti climax if they're level eleven (or thereabouts) and in the company of all the allies they can acquire along the way.

Obviously, most allies can only help by dying helplessly and thereby diverting one of Juiblex attacks, but that's incredibly valuable in itself, granted how combats are calibrated to run a mere three combat rounds.

But Out of the Abyss does give access to some pretty potent allies that are not going to be trivial even for a Demon Lord to sweep aside or ignore. Conjured Earth Elementals. Shield Guardians. Assassins. Spellcasters.

I looked Juiblex' stats over, and was immediately worried a level 11 version of my party would not only charge him, but actually kill him, and to do so rather quickly.

Which would be a disaster - not only because it's anticlimactic to run into a Demon Lord by chance, and off him like a regular wandering monster - but that it would set completely wrog expectations for the rest of the adventure: "if all these so-called demon lords are that puny, why can't we simply kill them all". Which is not how the adventure is supposed to go down, as I'm sure you can imagine.

(That's only the most immediate of answers. I'm aware you are discussing more things)

Ugh, I've ready your responses in the wrong order! Sorry if some of my early response seem ill informed. I get it, that is what I guessed. You just didn't state it in the OP. I would prefer to design Juiblex as demon lord (could take on a lvl 17-20 version of your group) and then nerf him for the final battle if needed. If your intent is to follow the adventure then the PCs are supposed to flee if they encounter him at level 10 (and he doesn't follow), so, to my mind, a more powerful Juiblex is all the more scary an likely to make your party flee.

 

[Gwarok]

CapnZapp. I really like the concept behind this experiment. Can't into much right now, but I will have some comments soon.

This sums up my feelings on the matter.

 

[Celtavian]

Interesting. What is the make-up and level of your party if I may ask? What did your party do to overcome the demons' magic resistance? How many focused on the marilith? I'm trying to get a better grasp how power gamers do things so I can revise monsters accordingly. Thank you!

This is a particularly potent party with high stats and extraordinary magic items. Not a good baseline for boosting. I wanted to make this a legendary campaign, so the PCs are stronger than you would find point buy. You can go to the characters by following the link in my signature. That's the campaign I'm running.

The tactics are typical power gamer tactics. The magic items are above average. Sharpshooter with +3 oathbow does a lot of damage. We're finding a paladin/wizard (bladesinger) can do a truck ton of damage with a lot of spell slots and a very high AC.

 

[dave2008]

This is a particularly potent party with high stats and extraordinary magic items. Not a good baseline for boosting. I wanted to make this a legendary campaign, so the PCs are stronger than you would find point buy. You can go to the characters by following the link in my signature. That's the campaign I'm running.

The tactics are typical power gamer tactics. The magic items are above average. Sharpshooter with +3 oathbow does a lot of damage. We're finding a paladin/wizard (bladesinger) can do a truck ton of damage with a lot of spell slots and a very high AC.

Cool thanks for sharing! What kind of DPR & AC do they have going. That is a deadly combo (high AC and high DPR)

 

[CapnZapp]

Now some more thoughts:

AC vs HP:
I like the idea of increasing HP (that is the 5e way after all) instead of AC as it keeps the bounded accuracy going. The issue I ran into is that actually hitting becomes trivial at higher lvl/CR because of higher modifiers. At some point the attack roll become pointless. I think there is a happy medium there of HP increase and AC increase, but I am not sure what it is. Something I will look into more with my epic updates. Also think HP increase is a simpler method of making a monster last long than having a multitude of resistances and immunities.

I do not disagree.

As for Juiblex, since the difference between your version and the official one wasn't significant, I'm inclined to not change the number unless I have a good reason.

You, on the other hand, you're rebuilding the epic threats from scratch using your own base tables. That you don't end up at the exact same numbers is not surprising.

In general, I think I can understand how WotC lets AC taper off like in their DMG tables - I think their idea is that as you approach level 20, you're supposed to feel more and more invincible. Level 20 is their end game. You're supposed to feel nothing can make you miss at that level.

The logical problems of having a level 20 character be all-powerful doesn't need to get adressed, because you're supposed to simply stop playing, retire that hero and start over at level 1. Something like that.

But for you it isn't. Your goal is to have stats that support a world with greater gods that remain firmly untouchable for greenhorn level 20 newbs

Since you have a completely different design goal, I would say that your tables are better for what you want but their tables are sufficient for their (different and less ambitious goals).

My goals lie in between. Unlike you I'm not concerned with epic/immortal play. Unlike WotC I have to worry about characters performing WAY above their expected paygrade.

HP increase vs DPR increase:
As mentioned above I like the HP increase. However, I severely disagree with not increasing DPR. Now, this gets into expected part range as well , so it is complicated, but I feel that what you're creating is a template for a battle that could drag. Lots of HP, but not much DPR was the 4e formula and there was all kinds of complaints about the drag of higher level battles in 4e. I didn't see it that way, but a lot of people did.

I understand your point.

I'll have to defer my comments until I've seen for myself what kind of damage output a Solo monster needs to have to get the attention of a level N party.

Where N is in the mid- to high teens. At the current level, Juiblex attacks and damage is plenty enough.

Assuming he can bring his guns to bear - which is the core of my concern, and the reason for tweaking him.

Regeneration:
I really like the idea of making in unstoppable. I think I will have to something like this with my epic updates.

To be honest, I'm not saying it must be completely unstoppable.

But I am damned sure no level zero cantrip should be enough.

And I also don't want the same old trick that works for Trolls to work on Demon Lords.

So, I suggest one out of two possible routes: the quality route or the quantity route.

The quantity route simply adds (example): "If Juiblex takes more than 20 points of fire or radiant damage from a single attack, the regeneration trait does not function at the start of his next turn". The intent here is that: yes, you can shut down his regeneration, but only if you expend a significant resource. (You would be doing that anyway, but it does send the signal that a single Firebolt cantrip or Flaming Sword blow doesn't do the job automatically, and that the flaming lamp oil definitely won't work any longer)

The quality route is more quest-friendly, because it says "If Juiblex is harmed by the blessed horn of a Unicorn, he cannot regenerate at the start of his next turn" or perhaps "If Juiblex takes blessed fire or holy radiant damage, ..." In both cases, the intent is that the unprepared party has to endure his regeneration, while the prepared party can dismiss it as easily as the RAW regen can be dismissed by pretty much any party.

In both cases we add: "The above are the only ways to prevent Juiblex from regenerating, short of divine intervention." Because we do not stand for the crap caused by the sloppy Chill Touch designer.

Legendary Resistance/ Magic Resistance/ Spell Immunity:
Celtavian mentioned in another thread he wouldn't use spell immunity and didn't like legendary resistance because he thought it was to much of a nerf for casters and you mentioned limiting spells, but not completely voiding them. Though I like the old school flavor of spell resistance and immunity, I think I am coming around to this philosophy. I don't want to nerf casters, but you do need to give monsters, especially solo monsters, protection.

Maybe they have to spend some legendary actions to use legendary resistance? This way, there is still a cost to the monster and thus the spell has had some benefit. I could see that working for immunity to, maybe costing 1 legendary action per level of spell? Seems a bit harsh, but if he's are hitting harder then Juiblex is still in the game even without his legendary actions.

Yeah, I haven't seen high level play yet, but I feel spellcasters get so few high level spells it's a shame they can be trivially ignored by the very threats the spellcasters want to use them on!

And the obvious tactic: throwing mid-level threats at the monster in the hopes it will spend its three saves, and THEN fire the big gun seems a distractingly abstract and meta tactic that doesn't sound like fun.

Also, making me the DM have to choose "do I let this spell thru and save my last legendary save, or do I stop it" is not what I want to be doing when I DM my monsters.

Also, it seems from forum discussion that the few spells that does not have the save-every-round mechanism are the ones people find worthwhile to use, and get the high ratings in guides. Maze, Forcecage, etc.

My thinking is: what happens when all these spells work, but perhaps only for one round? Then you actually INCREASE spell variety, since now all those save-every-round spells aren't markedly inferior any longer.

 

[CapnZapp]

I'm not sure what this comment is about. I expected the response to be more like: "No you misunderstood, I don't want to design Juiblex, I want to design Juiblex for this particular encounter for my particular group." What I'm getting at is that the reason to design Juiblex for a lvl 11-16 party is adventure specific and I am interested in designing Juiblex adventure independent. Once Juiblex is designed you can then modifying him and or the adventure to fit.

The OP is about, I thought, creating Juiblex (and to me, by extension, demon lords or epic monsters in general) that can take on a well equipped, well organized, and at least somewhat optimized party of 5 (I would prefer 4, but that is not what you stated). I thought the point was to discuss different thoughts and strategies to get that done.

Ugh, I've ready your responses in the wrong order! Sorry if some of my early response seem ill informed. I get it, that is what I guessed. You just didn't state it in the OP. I would prefer to design Juiblex as demon lord (could take on a lvl 17-20 version of your group) and then nerf him for the final battle if needed. If your intent is to follow the adventure then the PCs are supposed to flee if they encounter him at level 10 (and he doesn't follow), so, to my mind, a more powerful Juiblex is all the more scary an likely to make your party flee.

I think it's easiest if I simply let you read my posts, and then let you re-ask any questions you feel I haven't adressed. Okay?


Not sure I need to say this, but just to be safe:

My aim is to have a Demon Lord that deserves his CR (in the early or mid twenties).

Based on my experience with the system so far, I am being led to believe the following: To truly outclass a party of my players' caliber, a CR of > APL+10 is needed for a Solo as defined by this thread. Monsters of a CR 5 to 10 steps above the party level are tough, but definitely not impossible to defeat.

In the context of this encounter:
* if the party themselves is in the 21+ level range, he's reduced to "just another monster" (especially in his original WotC stat form). And they could concievably fight more than one Demon Lord at a time. And that would be fine.
* If the party is only 5 steps lower or so, the monster would make a fine challenge - if surrounded by an entourage and/or in his lair.
* A properly decked out level 16 party should, being less than ten levels away from his CR, find him a challenge, but should expect to persevere, assuming they can get to him when he's alone (meaning they can pull out all the stops and not have other encounters that day) and not on his home turf. Such as when trapped in the Underdark (as opposed to back home in the Abyss...)

Any lower than that...

A level 11 party should be able to avoid a TPK if they try him on for size but break off the attack in time. But they should definitely find the combat daunting to say the least, and they should definitely get their noses bloodied, rather than getting a sense that they can take him down. It's okay if an unlucky character croaks, to get across the point.

Based on the above, I would say the book Juiblex is perhaps CR 19. Which is to say, for the "assumed" non-optimal non-geared party; a perfectly fine challenge.

But specifically for my campaign: the risk that the expedition led by the PCs will attack and defeat Juiblex the Solo if they stumble upon him right after leaving Mantol-Derith is uncomfortably high.

This isn't about denying the characters a moment of glory. This is about maintaining the integrity of the campaign.