D&D 5E JUIBLEX

[Celtavian]

Cool thanks for sharing! What kind of DPR & AC do they have going. That is a deadly combo (high AC and high DPR)

Let me think. Last time using smites and oathbow with eldritch blast. Probably somewhere in the 200 plus range when fully uncorked smiting and the like.

The bladesinger's AC gets to 26 before he uses shield with haste and shield of faith. He has a 16 int and 18 dex. He has room to boost.

 

[dave2008]

My aim is to have a Demon Lord that deserves his CR (in the early or mid twenties).

Based on my experience with the system so far, I am being led to believe the following: To truly outclass a party of my players' caliber, a CR of > APL+10 is needed for a Solo as defined by this thread. Monsters of a CR 5 to 10 steps above the party level are tough, but definitely not impossible to defeat.

I think this is our fundamental difference. My philosophy is that anything APL+5 should be deadly to downright TPK. I am of the opinion that a CR 23 demon lord should wipe out a lvl 15 party with ease.

Since we have different end goals, no use debating the numbers, just the philosophy.

On that point the only really difference I see is in the DPR department. However, since you have a much lower APL in mind you are dealing with much lower PC hit points, which may require a lower DPR. I will definitely be interested to hear how it goes.

Final note: I don't know that my epic monsters meet this goal for optimized players / groups. I haven't gotten a really good account on what a high level (17-20) optimized pc/party can do yet.

 

[dave2008]

Let me think. Last time using smites and oathbow with eldritch blast. Probably somewhere in the 200 plus range when fully uncorked smiting and the like.

The bladesinger's AC gets to 26 before he uses shield with haste and shield of faith. He has a 16 int and 18 dex. He has room to boost.

Thank you again for sharing. This about level 9-10 correct?

The damage seems reasonable for a 6 person party.

Wow, that AC is really high. Might have to rethink my monster attack bonuses!

Thank you, that helps a lot!

 

[Celtavian]

Thank you again for sharing. This about level 9-10 correct?

The damage seems reasonable for a 6 person party.

Wow, that AC is really high. Might have to rethink my monster attack bonuses!

Thank you, that helps a lot!

I'll calculate DPR for a few rounds next week. See what they actually do and post it.

 

[CapnZapp]

I think this is our fundamental difference. My philosophy is that anything APL+5 should be deadly to downright TPK. I am of the opinion that a CR 23 demon lord should wipe out a lvl 15 party with ease.

Since we have different end goals, no use debating the numbers, just the philosophy.

On that point the only really difference I see is in the DPR department. However, since you have a much lower APL in mind you are dealing with much lower PC hit points, which may require a lower DPR. I will definitely be interested to hear how it goes.

Final note: I don't know that my epic monsters meet this goal for optimized players / groups. I haven't gotten a really good account on what a high level (17-20) optimized pc/party can do yet.

Well, I feel saying us having "fundamental differences" is a bit drastic. I feel I haven't really succeeded in explaining my position... or the jumbled post order got in the way?

Anyhow, here goes:

Conceptually I agree. However, we must always qualify any CR-related statement with "...for a given party".

And I really have no problems with that party being weaker than the party I'm DM:ing. In fact, the reverse would be awful - if a bunch of rather minmaxing players can't get ahead of the curve that would be rather bad for a variety of reasons, the most important one probably being that newbs would then be "behind the curve", rather than on it, which could be very discouraging.

Much better then for a DM like you or me to add a bunch of extra monsters into the mix to spice it up for players that can handle the heat. At least for me, since I'm not using the xp system for levelling. Extra monsters does not mean speedier leveling (which would obviously throw a spanner in the idea of adding more monsters to up the challenge; if it meant the PCs would level up faster than expected).

So, if my party can consistently handle a threat 5 CR higher, say, than what the core game assumes, that would still leave the CR system useable for me, since I would simply throw a CR 17 monster at the party when the book tells me to use a CR 12 monster. Or, more likely, use two or three of the CR 12 critters instead of the one prescribed by the module. (Please ignore the actual numbers, they're just examples).

So TBH I don't think you need to worry about upgrading your epic monsters too much. As long as you present a consistent set of Challenge Ratings that any given DM can then "calibrate to" visavi that particular DM's player characters... that's okay. Whether this means a CR of 5 + APL becomes a cakewalk or a death trap isn't and shouldn't be a big concern. Focus instead on making CR X that much easier than CR X+5, so that if one group finds the CR X monster, say Juiblex, a cakewalk and a CR X+5 monster, say Demogorgon, a tough but winnable fight, and another group finds Juiblex a deadly encounter but Demogorgon a TPK. Focus on the relative difference, and trust the individual DM to tweak your final monsters for their personal group. And in that regard, I can respect that WotC have gunned for the soft end of the spectum. You don't have to do that, but you should be aware that you might be redefining the CR unit if you don't. That is respectfully my honest advice.

Back to Old Sludgy.

I look at Juiblex and I don't see CR 23. Definitely not my-party-CR-23. Not even the "soft by the book CR 23". Juiblex seems more like a big dumb upper teens soft CR, let's say CR 18. And that's a problem. Because there's no Juiblexian CR 27 monster I can use instead...!

But then there's a more specific problem. And that is that Juiblex is slated to make an appearance at a certain stage of the Out of the Abyss module. For this purpose, I don't give a rat's ass about his Challenge Rating, as long as he Does. Not. Lose against the level 11ish or so party. Even on their good day, when they're fully fresh and Juiblex is all alone.

So my goals for Juiblex and this thread?

Update Juiblex partly to make him conform even to the official-but-soft CR 23 he's supposed to be. Also update Juiblex to avoid him embarrassing all the other Demon Lords, by keeling over to a random level 11 party (that just so happens to be my level 11 party). Luckily, I happen to believe it's possible to have a single set of stats that fulfils both these goals

I hope this makes my intent clear. And hopefully you'll agree we aren't having opposite goals, even though we certainly focus on different things

 

[dave2008]

I'll calculate DPR for a few rounds next week. See what they actually do and post it.

Thanks!

 

[dave2008]

Well, I feel saying us having "fundamental differences" is a bit drastic. I feel I haven't really succeeded in explaining my position... or the jumbled post order got in the way?

Anyhow, here goes:

Conceptually I agree. However, we must always qualify any CR-related statement with "...for a given party".

I didn't mean fundamental as a drastic difference, more: "the point a which we diverge," sense. I think I understand your position, and I share it for the most part. I just wasn't aware at the beginning that you were redesign Juiblex for your specific needs. That as the only confusion.

So TBH I don't think you need to worry about upgrading your epic monsters too much. As long as you present a consistent set of Challenge Ratings that any given DM can then "calibrate to" visavi that particular DM's player characters... that's okay. Whether this means a CR of 5 + APL becomes a cakewalk or a death trap isn't and shouldn't be a big concern. Focus instead on making CR X that much easier than CR X+5, so that if one group finds the CR X monster, say Juiblex, a cakewalk and a CR X+5 monster, say Demogorgon, a tough but winnable fight, and another group finds Juiblex a deadly encounter but Demogorgon a TPK. Focus on the relative difference, and trust the individual DM to tweak your final monsters for their personal group. And in that regard, I can respect that WotC have gunned for the soft end of the spectum. You don't have to do that, but you should be aware that you might be redefining the CR unit if you don't. That is respectfully my honest advice.

I guess my concern is that right now I think my designs might be in the middle. The WotC designs are at the low end, mine are definitely stronger, but are they full on optimized part stronger? I'm not sure, but I don't think so. I haven't yet decided if I need or want to make an adjustment, but there is something in my blood that wants a CR 25 demon lord to be a serious threat (like 75%+ chance of TPK) to a lvl 20 party of 4 of optimized characters (without epic boons). I guess I would like to see what an optimized lvl 20 party of 4 could do and go from there.

Update Juiblex partly to make him conform even to the official-but-soft CR 23 he's supposed to be. Also update Juiblex to avoid him embarrassing all the other Demon Lords, by keeling over to a random level 11 party (that just so happens to be my level 11 party). Luckily, I happen to believe it's possible to have a single set of stats that fulfils both these goals

I hope this makes my intent clear. And hopefully you'll agree we aren't having opposite goals, even though we certainly focus on different things

i think your well on your way to your goal (still think he needs to do more damage Never thought we had opposite goals, just different, and that is to be expected.

 

[Shadowdweller00]

Hmm. Perhaps this is unhelpful. But personally if I were going to include Juiblex or any other demon lord as a random encounter I 1) wouldn't ignore terrain and 2) wouldn't include them without an entourage. If only because I think a bit of terrain provides a medium for conveying so much thematic diversity. For example - I would tend to imagine Juiblex travelling through the underdark by oozing atop ceilings, through cramped cracks and tunnels, or tiny crevices too small for most other creatures to pass through or fight effectively in. I would tend to imagine a demon lord as having some sort of reality-warping powers along the lines of, if perhaps less in scope than, a full deity - variations on their wider lair effects perhaps; even if Juiblex is just "travelling through" an area.

For example - as the PCs approach the region in which Juiblex is travelling, they begin to notice odd details...like strange movements in mud. Or droplets of slime on the cavern walls reaching out as if to touch passers-by. As the PCs progress closer, more extreme effects begin to become apparent...odd echoes, increasing frequence of hazards such as green slime deposits, pockets of bad and/or reeking air, and eventually full-on oozes. Even though Juiblex is a bit of a loner, in OotA at least he is in the process of marshaling an army of oozes to send against Zuggtmoy. The idea of just running into a lone demon lord seems kind of like the sort of thematically jarring experience to me of "randomly" encountering a couple liches wandering about together or a single fire giant king alone in the some corner room of a larger dungeon, without any reason or justification for such creatures being there. (Across the hall from the Otyugh, two doors down from the ghouls).

As far as alternate abilities - you might consider effects that warp terrain, such as what the Gibbering Mouther classically possesses. Or Transmute Rock (PotA). Or stench / poison based effects.

 

[CapnZapp]

Good to hear, Dave.

I haven't yet decided if I need or want to make an adjustment, but there is something in my blood that wants a CR 25 demon lord to be a serious threat (like 75%+ chance of TPK) to a lvl 20 party of 4 of optimized characters (without epic boons). I guess I would like to see what an optimized lvl 20 party of 4 could do and go from there.

I honestly think the best way of thinking about it is the coldly analytical sober way:

Q. What is a CR 25 creature to a Level 20 party?
A. A creature five steps above their level. Nothing more, nothing less.

Meaning that I'm thinking you want different... layers, tiers or what have you.

A CR 25 Demon Lord is supposed to be more "epic" than a regular vanilla CR 25 monster.

But I don't think that's the best way to look at it.

All CR 25 critters are epic. That's why their CR is 21+.

Whenever you want strong lieutenants for your epic Lords of Doom, use CR 11-20 critters.

But resist the temptation to add in rank-and-file CR 21+ monsters. The game basically ends at or near level 20, and so anything above that CR should be unique or nearly unique.

That means accepting that a CR 25 demon lord will be somewhat of a threat to a level 20 party. Not more, not less.

How big a threat? That depends on the party optimization. If you ask my party or perhaps Celtavians, they will steamroll a single monster of APL+5 challenge rating. But I'm sure you can easily imagine another party that would find a monster at CR = APL to be exactly what the DMG assumes, that is an "average" encounter.

Rather than messing with the CR system, I think it's useful to stick with the same compatible "CR unit" used by the Monster Manual and the adventure supplements.

And instead accept that for a Demon Lord to be a serious threat to a minmaxed party of level 20 characters all by itself, it's CR should probably be 35 (using WotC's CR units).

You should probably keep the good work with your extended monster statistics table, where you roll back the way WotC made AC and other stats slow down as you approach CR 20.

But I honestly think you and us, your readers, would get the most usefulness out of your monsters if they stick to the only-lightly-tweaked WotC challenge ratings.

You could still keep ideas like the epic bonus. It's fair to see new curves appear at the start of the epic 21+ tier, just like PCs get revolutionary capstone abilities at level 20 (at least some classes do ).

If you extrapolate the WotC CR progression up to CR 40, where would your Juiblex DPR fall on that scale. Let's guesstimate that kind of damage would mean CR 32.

So be it then, let's give him CR 32.

That number expresses, to me, that a level 20 party could take him, but only if they play at the top of their game.

Which probably is exactly what you want.

To the "average" WotC-assumed Dungeon Master, CR 32 says "instant death trap far far more dangerous than the CR 20 monsters we can handle", and that would be fine.

Everybody would keep speaking the same language.

Your CR 23 critters wouldn't have to be "strangely" much deadlier than the ones WotC publish, and the ones published on DMs Guild.

Because they wouldn't be CR 23. They would be CR 32.

 

[CapnZapp]

Hmm. Perhaps this is unhelpful. But personally if I were going to include Juiblex or any other demon lord as a random encounter I 1) wouldn't ignore terrain and 2) wouldn't include them without an entourage. If only because I think a bit of terrain provides a medium for conveying so much thematic diversity

Well, that's not unhelpful at all - it's all excellent advice!

Where the "unhelpfulness" comes in is that in order to evaluate any given monster it's important to not compare apples and oranges.

That is, if a monster needs terrain or allies to uphold a certain Challenge Rating... then he's not really worthy of that CR! His CR should be lower.

Unless, and this is a quite important exception... unless those factors are included in his stat block or monster entry.

Like lairs are: "if Hubba Bubba is encountered in his lair, he's CR 66".

So if Juiblex needs terrain or whatever to present an unbeatable encounter for a level 11 party (which is what CR 23 is saying) then he needs a way to bring that terrain with him whereever he goes.

Much like how Orcus always carries 500 hp worth of Undead to sprinkle around the battlefield.

If Juiblex can't innately create the factors that make him CR 23, then he should simply not be CR 23.

Whether the adventure text then places him in that terrain or not, is another matter completely!

Best Regards,
Zapp