D&D 5E June 17 Legend & Lore - Playtesting Dragons

As an addendum, I'll echo the sentiment of not a fan of the "but magic" having to legitimize all of the various effects of Legendary Creatures. One of my primary beefs with 3.x at the end of my tenure running 2 extremely long campaigns (that spanned epic in both) was that BBEGs were absolutely 0 threat to PCs unless a "but magic" template or class was used; eg dragons had to be played as giant lizard sorcerers to pose the requisite threat to epic heroes. Relevant, threatening, mundane BBEG was well outside of the scope of play by level 10. That needs to not happen again.
 

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KidSnide

Adventurer
As an addendum, I'll echo the sentiment of not a fan of the "but magic" having to legitimize all of the various effects of Legendary Creatures. One of my primary beefs with 3.x at the end of my tenure running 2 extremely long campaigns (that spanned epic in both) was that BBEGs were absolutely 0 threat to PCs unless a "but magic" template or class was used; eg dragons had to be played as giant lizard sorcerers to pose the requisite threat to epic heroes. Relevant, threatening, mundane BBEG was well outside of the scope of play by level 10. That needs to not happen again.

I partially disagree.

One the one hand, I like the idea that legendary creatures can break the rules, and thus gain access to some of the design principles that 4e developed for solo creatures. I had some really satisfying fights with well designed solo enemies in 4e, and I would like to continue using that technology for D&DN.

Further, I also like the legendary/solo break in 4e, where creatures get to break the rules because they are extraordinary, and not merely because the game mechanics need to adjust in order to make a much higher level enemy fun for lower level PCs to fight. The idea that the same "mid-to-high level fighter" could be a solo for a low-level party, an elite for a mid-level party and a standard creature for a high level party has some significant downsides. Partially, it seriously offends the sensibilities of the folks who believe that the rules should be consistent regardless of the level of PCs that turn up. And, partially, even if you aren't offended, it's much easier to manage the game if a given creature always has the same stats.

In other words, there are real benefits to limiting "game breaking" to a legendary class of creatures and items.

But I also partially agree with you. It would be nice if you could have a satisfying big fight with a single enemy without resorting to legendary foes.

With flat math, a hill giant is a fair tough fight for a party of 3rd level characters, but a couple failed saves against grease spells and a party with good ranged attacks could have an easy fight. To some degree, that's ok. If the answer is that encounters against powerful non-legendary creatures are swingy and could end quickly if the monster has a bad save or two, I guess that's ok if DMs have the legendary tool in their pocket.

But I sometimes wonder if flat math has gone a little too far, and what D&DN needs isn't flat math, but just "flatter" math. A small save bonus to high level monsters (or the like) might generate more satisfying fights against foes of substantially different levels? I'm not sure. How many folks have spent a lot of time testing out those kind of encounters?

-KS
 

@KidSnide We missed each other somewhere in there because I don't believe we're in disagreement based off of what you've written above. I just want mundane, martial antagonists to be relevant at mid and high level play. I want

- Barbarian chieftains and Frost Giant Jarls with big mean axes who have slain all comers.
- Bandit Kings and Thieves' Guildmasters with piles of mooks and dirty, mundane tricks.
- Dragons whose primary mode of attack is claws, tail-swipes, crushing maws, flying crush attacks, minions and the homefield advantage of their lair.
- An actual horde/swarm of mundane creatures (humanoid or animals) to be a legitimate threat in a major antagonist role or at least a worthy conflict to be resolved.
- Death Knights who sword as well as they undead or fear or aura.
- A pack of werewolves who are legitimized as stealthy hunters and an up close and personal frenzy of claws, fangs and fur (and a disease that causes an interesting conflict to be resolved).

I don't want all relevant threats to be narrowed to Beholders, Mind Flayers, Vampires, Liches, Priests, Sorcerers, and Wizards; I don't want all relevant threats to be spellcasters because only "but magic" is threatening.
 

S

Sunseeker

Guest
Would NPCs like Drizzt or Elminster be legendary? If so, this feels very wrong for a naturalistic campaign. It would suck if the PCs could never be as cool as Drizzt, just because he has some arbitrary NPC favoritism that they can't have.

Legendary Actions make it difficult to use multiple legendary creatures in one fight, but maybe it's not too much worse than multiple high-level spellcasters (though, wait until we see outsiders, which have a million spells already).

I also don't see how "Legendary Resistance" helps at all. It's still just as arbitrary and lame as the standard Solo immunities from 4e, but requires more bookkeeping. I support the idea of having fate points that can be used to affect any d20 roll.

All that said, this is a very cool idea that I'm looking forward to trying in my game. Coincidentally, it works perfectly with my idea of using Fate Points when my players go to the Outer Planes (inspired by an optional rule in the Planewalker's Handbook), so it makes perfect sense that powerful cosmic creatures have something like fate points. I'm not sure why dragons count under that definition (IIRC, according to Planescape, dragons are never found anywhere outside the Material Plane), but it definitely gives them the reverence they deserve.

Getting way back to this post, there's no reason that "Legendary" can't be a reasonable aspect of high-level play. Perhaps something you gain only from 21st level and up.
 

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Getting way back to this post, there's no reason that "Legendary" can't be a reasonable aspect of high-level play. Perhaps something you gain only from 21st level and up.


High level play is around 10th level +, looks like 5th Ed is not bothering with that 21st level + malarkey.
 

GX.Sigma

Adventurer
Getting way back to this post, there's no reason that "Legendary" can't be a reasonable aspect of high-level play. Perhaps something you gain only from 21st level and up.
That's what Mike implied on Twitter. I (and someone else) asked him about the legendary mechanics and high-level characters, and his response was "Well, our advancement tables only cover up to level 20. For now." So, there could be an epic tier above 20 where you become a legendary creature (which, based on the definition of legendary, must involve becoming a demigod or something).
 

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That's what Mike implied on Twitter. I (and someone else) asked him about the legendary mechanics and high-level characters, and his response was "Well, our advancement tables only cover up to level 20. For now." So, there could be an epic tier above 20 where you become a legendary creature (which, based on the definition of legendary, must involve becoming a demigod or something).


I am realy hoping not, the "epic" open-ended garbage will hopefully fade away.
 


keterys

First Post
In 13th Age, epic is 8th-10th level, cause it only has a 10 level scale. It's all relative. Is there any particular reason 10th is a bad descriptor of high level play?

I mean, it historically has been high level in D&D, since you can save or die, resurrect, teleport, fly about invisible attacking, and otherwise change the metagame quite a bit.
 


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