D&D 5E June 17 Legend & Lore - Playtesting Dragons
I like it a lot. But the 4 'fate points', which they call 'Legendary Resistance', to auto-succeed on saving throws disproportionately hoses casters and becomes useless against melee types.
Give it 5 Fate Points that can be used to pass saves, or negate an attack, providing resistance against both casters and warriors. Do this and we've got a dragon that lasts a couple more round to perform its nifty 'Legendary Actions' - which do a good job of upping its offense.
It also needs a bump to AC and HPs: +2 to AC and Max or Double HP would help this dragon last longer as well.
Give it 5 Fate Points that can be used to pass saves, or negate an attack, providing resistance against both casters and warriors. Do this and we've got a dragon that lasts a couple more round to perform its nifty 'Legendary Actions' - which do a good job of upping its offense.
It also needs a bump to AC and HPs: +2 to AC and Max or Double HP would help this dragon last longer as well.
I'm A Banana
Potassium-Rich
So, my context for comparison is basically this.
And I'm not disappointed.
There's quibbles, of course. Like how this black dragon doesn't feel like a black dragon to me (where's the disease, the insects, the rot, the corruption? The lair gets at it a little bit, but a black dragon to me is a dragon of the PLAGUE, not a dragon of aggressive dampness!). But the good on this is far outweighed by the bad.
I like that it breaks the action economy. This goes with my article's idea of "triggered" actions. I kind of like triggers better than just a list of things personally (they're easier to keep track of and can involve more strategy), but a list of actions is fine in concept. The lair adds to this, I think.
I like the link to the lair. A black dragon doesn't just sleep in swamps, the places where it chooses to sleep become swamps! This can interface with an exploration module pretty well (and I'm a little disappointed that this one doesn't!).
The idea of ignoring d20 rolls is very similar in intent to my idea of an overwhelming power dynamic. Like with the action economy solution, I'm a bigger fan of a "weaknesses" system than just an "I Win" button (easier to remember, more fun in play), but it's conceptually the same thing.
I'd prefer if it had different ways to spend that legendary d20-negating power. Auto-success sounds like a lot of fun (you made your save against the dragon's breath? Oh, wait, no you didn't!). I don't see why they can't negate attacks in general. And the d20-negating power + magic resistance seems to be overkill against magical control...but what do I know?
But I really like it. It's a great first iteration.
And I'm not disappointed.
There's quibbles, of course. Like how this black dragon doesn't feel like a black dragon to me (where's the disease, the insects, the rot, the corruption? The lair gets at it a little bit, but a black dragon to me is a dragon of the PLAGUE, not a dragon of aggressive dampness!). But the good on this is far outweighed by the bad.
I like that it breaks the action economy. This goes with my article's idea of "triggered" actions. I kind of like triggers better than just a list of things personally (they're easier to keep track of and can involve more strategy), but a list of actions is fine in concept. The lair adds to this, I think.
I like the link to the lair. A black dragon doesn't just sleep in swamps, the places where it chooses to sleep become swamps! This can interface with an exploration module pretty well (and I'm a little disappointed that this one doesn't!).
The idea of ignoring d20 rolls is very similar in intent to my idea of an overwhelming power dynamic. Like with the action economy solution, I'm a bigger fan of a "weaknesses" system than just an "I Win" button (easier to remember, more fun in play), but it's conceptually the same thing.
I'd prefer if it had different ways to spend that legendary d20-negating power. Auto-success sounds like a lot of fun (you made your save against the dragon's breath? Oh, wait, no you didn't!). I don't see why they can't negate attacks in general. And the d20-negating power + magic resistance seems to be overkill against magical control...but what do I know?
But I really like it. It's a great first iteration.
Blackwarder
Adventurer
I really like it, the best thing about it is that it's very evocative.
Mike said on twitter that the group that playtested this dragon where 6 7th or 8th characters, they got nearly TPK and the dragon rolled poorly on the last 1/3 of the fight.
Warder
Mike said on twitter that the group that playtested this dragon where 6 7th or 8th characters, they got nearly TPK and the dragon rolled poorly on the last 1/3 of the fight.
Warder
GX.Sigma
Adventurer
Would NPCs like Drizzt or Elminster be legendary? If so, this feels very wrong for a naturalistic campaign. It would suck if the PCs could never be as cool as Drizzt, just because he has some arbitrary NPC favoritism that they can't have.
Legendary Actions make it difficult to use multiple legendary creatures in one fight, but maybe it's not too much worse than multiple high-level spellcasters (though, wait until we see outsiders, which have a million spells already).
I also don't see how "Legendary Resistance" helps at all. It's still just as arbitrary and lame as the standard Solo immunities from 4e, but requires more bookkeeping. I support the idea of having fate points that can be used to affect any d20 roll.
All that said, this is a very cool idea that I'm looking forward to trying in my game. Coincidentally, it works perfectly with my idea of using Fate Points when my players go to the Outer Planes (inspired by an optional rule in the Planewalker's Handbook), so it makes perfect sense that powerful cosmic creatures have something like fate points. I'm not sure why dragons count under that definition (IIRC, according to Planescape, dragons are never found anywhere outside the Material Plane), but it definitely gives them the reverence they deserve.
Legendary Actions make it difficult to use multiple legendary creatures in one fight, but maybe it's not too much worse than multiple high-level spellcasters (though, wait until we see outsiders, which have a million spells already).
I also don't see how "Legendary Resistance" helps at all. It's still just as arbitrary and lame as the standard Solo immunities from 4e, but requires more bookkeeping. I support the idea of having fate points that can be used to affect any d20 roll.
All that said, this is a very cool idea that I'm looking forward to trying in my game. Coincidentally, it works perfectly with my idea of using Fate Points when my players go to the Outer Planes (inspired by an optional rule in the Planewalker's Handbook), so it makes perfect sense that powerful cosmic creatures have something like fate points. I'm not sure why dragons count under that definition (IIRC, according to Planescape, dragons are never found anywhere outside the Material Plane), but it definitely gives them the reverence they deserve.
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Warbringer
Explorer
Opinion:
2nd Page is awesome, great advise, great atmosphere, looks of hooks (perfect for new DMs)
1st Page: Love the interactions; Like the breaking with the action economy for players (ie monsters are different); Implementation feels clunky still (but as Mike says, be nice, its barely even alpha). Even though the playtest was a near TPK (8th Tough/10th Average encounter), I'm concerned that damage done/damage soak has this baby lasting less than 3 rounds.(But this is a concern I'm having with monsters in general and maybe we will just see a lift overall in a packet soon).
2nd Page is awesome, great advise, great atmosphere, looks of hooks (perfect for new DMs)
1st Page: Love the interactions; Like the breaking with the action economy for players (ie monsters are different); Implementation feels clunky still (but as Mike says, be nice, its barely even alpha). Even though the playtest was a near TPK (8th Tough/10th Average encounter), I'm concerned that damage done/damage soak has this baby lasting less than 3 rounds.(But this is a concern I'm having with monsters in general and maybe we will just see a lift overall in a packet soon).
Salamandyr
Adventurer
Based on my reading, it seems to me that someone like Elminster could be a "Legendary" creature, thanks to his being a Chosen of Mystra, which is a little like being in possession of an artifact, like the Orc king mentioned holding the Spear of Mystra. But I think a DM statting Drizzt (or one of his own pet NPC's--you know we've all got them) as something like that is misusing the rule. In any case, unless the DM was using such an NPC as an opponent, it wouldn't really matter. And if he is, hey! you get to kill Drizzt!
I could see using this template for something like Acererak, an impossibly old lich, or someone wielding a godlike artifact, but otherwise, I'd only use it as implied--for creatures who are big, otherwordly, or both.
I could see using this template for something like Acererak, an impossibly old lich, or someone wielding a godlike artifact, but otherwise, I'd only use it as implied--for creatures who are big, otherwordly, or both.
TerraDave
5ever, or until 2024
I like the article and how he approaches it.
The dragon, I am not so sure....
Elites and solos do work pretty well in 4E. And while I see what he is doing, it feels a little like "cheating", its something that won't work at low levels (aka the ogre or troll that can challenge a party), and its a little fiddly. And yes, AC is way to low, HP probably as well.
One problem solos have in 4E is dealing with that editions conditionitis. But it seems like there are less radical options to deal with that then what is presented here.
Of course, on the other hand, it could be fun to run that dragon.
The dragon, I am not so sure....
Elites and solos do work pretty well in 4E. And while I see what he is doing, it feels a little like "cheating", its something that won't work at low levels (aka the ogre or troll that can challenge a party), and its a little fiddly. And yes, AC is way to low, HP probably as well.
One problem solos have in 4E is dealing with that editions conditionitis. But it seems like there are less radical options to deal with that then what is presented here.
Of course, on the other hand, it could be fun to run that dragon.
Neonchameleon
Legend
Well. Second best dragons D&D has come out with (beaten only by 4e Monster Vault era) and the concept of their environments making them more powerful shows promise. But there's a bit of reinventing the wheel and making sure they don't give credit where it is due to 4e. (Had [MENTION=697]mearls[/MENTION] said that it took two years after the initial publication of 4e to get solos that lived up to their name he'd have had a good point).
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