D&D 5E Just a reality check.

[Evenglare]

Just because someone enjoys playing the game differently than you do doesn't mean they're playing it "wrong". I enjoy playing min-maxed and optimized characters myself because no one likes to suck.

But if you want to talk about the character rather than their stats, I can point you to several fictional characters that would be Munchkined all over the place that people still love: Superman, Wolverine, Deadpool, etc.

A minmax character does have flaws to overcome. That's where the "min" part comes in. My fighter may be the strongest, fastest, toughest guy on the planet, but he has no people skills and is oblivious and uneducated. They can also have personality flaws that aren't reflected by their stats (outside the new trait/flaw/bond/etc. system).

What it boils down to is that, when you jump on someone that way, you come off as telling someone that they're having fun wrong. It's considered rude and confrontational as much as if I went on and on to you about "sitting around a campfire singing jambalaya while talking about our feelings and tragic 15 page character backstory." It's a simplistic view of what we're doing.

Note 1: I know that's not the song title, but Autocorrect changed it and I'm keeping it.

Note 2: I write 15 page backstories for my minmaxed characters.

Can you please quote me where I said it was wrong? I simply said I find it boring, but please quote where I said it was wrong to have fun playing those characters? I would like to apologize but I can't seem to find where I said it.

 

[Dausuul]

Optimization serves roleplaying. Let's say my character concept is "sneaky guy who's scared of combat but brilliant at talking his way out of it." That's going to require some good role-playing from me. But it's also going to require some optimization; I'm going to need to put stat points into Charisma and find a way to get proficiency in Persuasion. Otherwise the mechanics of my character won't fit the concept. I will blow all my Persuasion checks and fail to talk my way out of anything.

And I'd like to hear how it's "roleplaying" to choose leather armor over studded leather if you have the money for the latter. Apparently you're roleplaying a guy with a death wish. Very, very few people who've been in combat would deliberately choose inferior gear.

(By "inferior," I don't mean, "Has poor stats in the rules." I mean, "Within the fictional reality of the game world, it's cheap armor worn by people who can't afford anything better.")

 

[Sir Hawk]

And I'd like to hear how it's "roleplaying" to choose leather armor over studded leather if you have the money for the latter.

Well.....

Apparently you're roleplaying a guy with a death wish.

There ya go! You just answered your own question.

Or I'm roleplaying a guy who is a cheapskate.

Or a guy who's saving money to buy something else.

Or a guy with metal-phobia.

Or a guy who just friggin' loves leather.

There's really a million options here.

 

[Abstruse]

Can you please quote me where I said it was wrong? I simply said I find it boring, but please quote where I said it was wrong to have fun playing those characters? I would like to apologize but I can't seem to find where I said it.

If you read the entire comment I wrote, I state that's the impression you give. When you ask rapid-fire loaded questions, you're not asking because you want to know the answer but because you're trying to prove a point. The implied point is "You're playing wrong and you should play the game like I do." If I posted a half dozen or more questions in this post asking you about why you'd want to play a weak character easily crushed, what fun is it to constantly lose, etc. then you would feel the same way. I obviously have already made up my mind and am not asking questions. I'm simply being a jerk.

If you're genuinely curious as to why people prefer to play optimized or min/maxed characters over suboptimal ones, you could try phrasing your questions in less of an accusatory manner and you'll probably get less hostile responses.

 

[Cybit]

For me, I just have to wonder whether they intend to create some tactical martial rules in a later book which tie to the weapons. (High Crit, etc etc)

Remind me to spend some time this weekend and dig out the weapon properties I created for each weapon.

 

[Hussar]

OMG, are people STILL making the Roll/Role playing argument? Really? Good grief, things really don't change that much do they? You can see this same ridiculous argument being made on Usenet from almost twenty years ago, and I'm pretty sure there are articles in The Strategic Review that try the same tired old tripe.

Look, unless your fighter is naked and using a spork, you are min/maxing. Guess what? You chose a weapon that did more damage than another weapon. You chose this armour over that armour. You put your highest stat in whatever it is you think will make your character succeed more at whatever it is you want your character to do. Why did you do that? Because you are min/maxing.

It is so incredibly disingenuous to try to pull this "oh, well, I'm a true role player, so, these things don't matter and if you were a true role player, it wouldn't matter to you either". It's such a complete crock. For the love of little fishes, try to come up with a cogent argument for why mechanical elements should not matter other than, "well, I'm a superior gamer".

 

[Morrus]

OMG, are people STILL making the Roll/Role playing argument? Really? Good grief, things really don't change that much do they? You can see this same ridiculous argument being made on Usenet from almost twenty years ago, and I'm pretty sure there are articles in The Strategic Review that try the same tired old tripe.
.

Just because you've been having a conversation for 20 years doesn't mean everybody else has. Some people on this thread might not even be 20 years old. If you're not interested in the conversation, feel free to skip it - but other people are more than welcome to have it here without being mocked for it. Let's let them have it, eh?

 

[nedjer]

So far it's a well presented, lots of familiar D&D flavour rule set that seems to adopt much of a lightened up 3e. It's not that there's lots to criticise, more not so much that grabs by the throat.

As an OSR publisher it's quite interesting in that respect.

 

[Hussar]

/ edit whoops. Posting from phone and didn't see the mod color. My bad.

 

[thalmin]

Sure although to me it is plain simple to see.

There is no reason to wear padded or leather armor when studded is 1 pt better AC, with no penalty, same with hide vs chain shirt, and ring mail vs chain mail. Yes there are weight and cost differences but those are trivial things with the amount of starting gold, found treasure, and encumbrance rules the way they are.

Weapons, you have things like maul being in every way better than a great axe, a spear (simple weapon) being exactly the same as a trident (martial weapon), things like that.

Balance, symmetry, simple math these things were not in the heads of the game designers.

Padded Armor is probably on the list more for NPCs. Underpaid town guards and common low-level thugs might have such cheap armor, and the listing is more for reference and completeness than being a realistic choice for a PC.

Leather is cheaper and lighter, though less effective, than studded. Yet I chose it for a rogue I recently created. At first level cost was a big factor. The rogue had a terrible strength score, so weight was crucial. For the cost and weight of Studded (45 gp, 13 lbs), I instead chose Leather plus a short bow and a quiver of arrows(36 gp, 13 lbs) leaving an extra 9 gp to purchase silk rope to replace hemp and a 5 pound savings. So I had a net weight saving of 5 pounds (keeping me at a light load) had a real missile weapon, at the cost of 1 point of AC.

A Maul is heavier than a greataxe, though that shouldn't be much of a factor for a strength based character. However, it is easier to cut down a tree or split wood with a greataxe.

A trident is found in the hands of some iconic monsters (lizardfolk for one) and we need stats when we recover the loot. In the hands of a fighter it is no worse than a spear.

I think we will see more weapon differences coming in the DMG, where we might see a return of different Critical Hit numbers and multipliers