D&D 5E Just a thought about prestige classes.

[GMforPowergamers]

I'm sorry, but if hybrids like the mystic theurge were supposed to work like that, then we wouldn't have gotten the Eldrtich Knight or Arcane Trickster subclasses - because that's all they are. Wizard - Fighter and Wizard - Rogue prestige classes turned into 5e subclasses. By your logic, you shouldn't need a subclass for these combinations - just go one level fighter/rogue, one level wizard, repeat.

5e multiclassing isn't designed to handle hybrid combinations very well. Not with how level progression and the tiers of play work. Especailly with non-caster characters - no stacking of extra attacks is a huge loss, and a (for example) Paladin 6/Fighter 5 will be distinctly weaker than their single class counterparts at the same character level - fighter would have third attack, paladin Improved Smite, a fighter / paladin gets nothing. Casters have a similiar issue - their level 3, 6, and 9 spell lists are huge jumps in power. A fireball cast as a level 9 spell is no match for a meteor swarm. A chromatic sphere cast as a level 6 spell has nothing on disintegrate. Even something as casting flaming sphere as a level 3 spell is embarrassing compared to casting a fireball, and that's just a 1 level difference.

There's some stuff you can do well with multiclass rules. Hybrid leveling? Not one of them.

I agree a lot but there is a lot of disagreement in this thread. I think that multi classing spell casters was a huge issue in 3e and they fixed a lot of it. However there are still some patches to be made.

a fighter level 14 has 3 attacks and some kind of cool features (half of them in the second half of the class)
a wizard level 14 has 7th level spell slots and 7th level spells known is more powerful and versatile then the fighter. (a problem of class balance)

a fighter 7/wizard 7 is not as versatile or powerful as the wizard, but is more versatile then the fighter, but less powerful...

this is an issue, and one eldritch knight kind of fixes, in exchange of your subclass you would get 2 more spell caster levels out of that.

my problem is that high level powers are better then low level ones. Once you comet to a multi class you give up ALOT of cool features there is no reason why they can't have a PC fix that like they did 3e...

 

[DammitVictor]

There's some stuff you can do well with multiclass rules. Hybrid leveling? Not one of them.

This is the only aspect of 5e I am truly disappointed in; I'm baffled as to how they could have possibly thought that 3e-style multiclassing was a good idea when they spent the entire 3.5 development cycle publishing various methods to fix it.

 

[GMforPowergamers]

This is the only aspect of 5e I am truly disappointed in; I'm baffled as to how they could have possibly thought that 3e-style multiclassing was a good idea when they spent the entire 3.5 development cycle publishing various methods to fix it.

I like the basic caster fix (when multi classing 2 full casters) however once you include anything without casting it takes a huge dip... and the poor warlock.

I would think always add half level would be a good start...then if you are a caster not full half level +1...

so a wizard 6/ barbarian 6 would be spells known of a 6th level wizard but spell slots of a 9th...

of courcse that still doesn't fix the fact that multi Fighter/Rogue (a popular 1e/2e multi combo) is never going to stand up

 

[GMforPowergamers]

just to see what a PC would look like I made a quick duilist/swashbuckler...
[sblock=example]
Duelist d10 hp,
Prereq: Evasion, combat superiority dice, parry
1st Precise strike +1d6
2nd + 1 die code superiority dice, Canny Defense (When in light armor and wielding a finesse weapon you can add your Int mod to your parry rolls)
3rd 2 bonus maneuvers, Quick to act (when you roll initiative you may add a superiority die)
4th +1 superiority die, skill trick (choose a mobility based skill, you may add a superiority die to it)
5th Precise strike +2d6, Sly flourish (When in light armor and wielding a finesse weapon you can add your CHA mod to damage on any 1 target once per round)
6th 2 bonus maneuvers
7th +2 ability score, or Feat
8th +1 superiority die, Show off (when you crit with an attack you can regain a superiority die)
9th Precise Strike +3d6
10th + 1 die code superiority dice, extra attack
[/sblock]

 

[Mephista]

This is the only aspect of 5e I am truly disappointed in; I'm baffled as to how they could have possibly thought that 3e-style multiclassing was a good idea when they spent the entire 3.5 development cycle publishing various methods to fix it.

Its not as bad as you think. In 3.x, one thing we were often told is that Level Adjustment is poison to a spellcaster because each level matters to them. Meanwhile, warriors didn't care, because they have a lot of dead levels.

Now, there are no more dead levels in anyone. Even fighters are getting huge amount of feats as they level, which is proving to be surprisingly adapt at a lot of stuff when they start grabbing things like Actor and Dungeon Delver without worrying about being a weaker combatant. Its actually pretty impressive what one fighter can do out of combat with this.

I'm of the personal opinion that pure classes are stronger than multiclasses, with the notable exception of some half-caster gishes.

 

[Mephista]

But now that's moving off topic. Back to talking about prestige classes. When I said that they were all in subclasses, I felt that was true, but then, that's because most of the ones I'm familiar with are either 1) hybrid classes, or 2) some kind of specialty track. What do I mean by specialty track?

Role playing games lend themselves to being a specialist of some kind, focusing your abilities on one area instead of being competent in many. Not just mechanically, but story-wise. And prestige classes were often very narrow in scope and execution, making them very specialized. So, you took a prestige class instead of a general class, because specialization is better.

I don't see prestige classes as existing for story reasons, or anything like that. Just as a way of specializing your character. Its the same thing as kits in 2e, and the purpose of subclasses in 5e.


Now, I suppose there could be prestige classes out there that don't fit that mind set. If there are, I'm not familiar with them. With that mindset, I can't really think of anything that would be better served feats or backgrounds or something else. Arcane Archer, for instance, I think would be better off as an eldritch knight twin path. I would like arcane spellcasting to go along with archery skill, which is best served by a kind of gish class. Plus, giving a feat available to a level 1 human that did it would be unfair to the valor bard and eldritch knight war/battle magic.

So, for those who are saying that subclasses aren't good for all subclasses, let me ask you - can you name some that would be better off as a feat or something else? I'd like to hear some examples and why you think that way, because I just can't think of any under my paradigm.

 

[GMforPowergamers]

So, for those who are saying that subclasses aren't good for all subclasses, let me ask you - can you name some that would be better off as a feat or something else? I'd like to hear some examples and why you think that way, because I just can't think of any under my paradigm.

my problem is specilities within specilities...

you point one out your self, an eldritch knight arcane archer... the duiliest I made up thread (some kind of swashbuckler)...

could you make a feat out of arcane archer, YES, could you make a sub class YES, you can also make a prestige class... they all have there own merits and flaws.

The orginal prestige classes where bards, then the dragonlance stuff... Knight of the rose anyone?

 

[trentonjoe]

What about something like this:

Dragon Slayer

Prerequisite:

Member of an organization dedicated to killing dragons (or something similar)
Battlemaster Maneuver Dice


Benefit:

Every odd level, the character may add one of these manueavers to it manuever list

Breath Stun: Aimed at the gullet, this attack attempts to disable the breath weapon. Besides the damage, the breath weapon is disabled for 1 round per point of damage inflicted if the dragon fails a CON save.
Dazzle: Twirling a weapon confuses the dragon and prevents it from casting spells or using innate magical powers by disrupting the its ability to concentrate if it fails an INT save.
Wing Attack: Aimed at the wing muscles, this attack inflicts normal damage and keeps the dragon from flying for 1 round per point of damage inflicted if it fails a DEX save.

 

[The Myopic Sniper]

I kind of wish all the classes had their subclass nodes at the same levels (2nd, 6th, 10th, 14th and 18th perhaps) and didn't directly interact with class mechanics that way any class could take any subclass although some would synergize better than with others. Obviously, that wasn't a way they wanted to go. Maybe in 6th Edition for the 50th Anniversary. You can still make up your own Prestige Classes using the 3E model. I don't think it particularly breaks anything, but I am not seeing a whole lot that can't be covered by feats, subclasses, non-epic boons or alternate class features.

One other possible way to do prestige classes is simply to be a character template interacting with the hit die mechanic. Drop all Hit Dice from all classes by one die size and sprinkle a variety of features occasionally between levels 1 and 20. Since it can be counteracted by the toughness feat, you can't really offer much more than what you would get from a normal feat, but it might be better at modelling certain hierarchical archetypes better where you feel like you are earning new powers as you go along than receiving it all in one feat.

 

[GMforPowergamers]

I kind of wish all the classes had their subclass nodes at the same levels (2nd, 6th, 10th, 14th and 18th perhaps) and didn't directly interact with class mechanics that way any class could take any subclass although some would synergize better than with others.

yup then I could be an eldritch knight ranger, and a battlmaster rogue