Just For Fun: How Can You Make a 3.X-style version of Moldvay/Mentzer OD&D?

[AFGNCAAP]

This thread was sort of inspired by the 1E'ing 3E thread. This thread is also not intended as an edition wars thread at all, so please, don't turn it into one.

Of all of the earlier iterations of D&D, the one I really had a lot of fun playing was the Moldvay/Mentzer version (which, ultimately became the Rules Cyclopedia version). All of the "favorite edition" threads, and the 1E'ing 3E thread got me thinking.

I was considering making a 3.5 ed. version of the Rules Cyclopedia style D&D--using the newer resolution mechanics & other elements, but also (in a way) making a simpler version of 3.5.

My question for everyone is: how exactly would you do that? What would you do to make a 3.5-ized version of Mentzer's D&D?

I've had a few ideas on how to do this:

• Combine race & class for the core Classes. In order to capture the feel of the game, Dwarf, Elf, and Halfling would have to be classes in their own right. Still allow for full progression instead of placing level caps (since 3.X has given humans abilities to put them on par with other races).
• Maybe simplify the alignments. Go back to the Lawful/Neutral/Chaotic alignment scheme, though admittedly, this potentially would be more like just having Lawful Good/Neutral/Chaotic Evil for available alignments (since Lawful had strong connotations with Good and Chaotic had strong connotations with Evil). The nine-alignment system could still work, though.
• Go back to the "classic" six types of dragons. To be more in line with dragon ALs in the earlier version, just have dragons always be Lawful, Neutral, or Chaotic, but perhaps allow for some leniency when it comes to them being Good, Neutral, or Evil. Gold dragons would be Lawful; Red, Black, and Green dragons would be Chaotic; and Blue and White dragons would be Neutral (IIRC the dragons' ALs from the Red Box set).
• Pair down the weapons list. Just have 1 type of weapon rather than both light and heavy versions of weapons (like maces or flails). Drop a lot of the "exotic" exotic weapons like the double-bladed sword or dire flail.

So, with this in mind, the 3.5-ized basic D&D core Classes could be:

• Cleric: Human cleric. Has the bonus feats and skill points already worked in to the class features. Clerics could begin play with set domains, depending on whether they choose to channel positive energy (Healing & Protection domains) or negative energy (Death and Destruction domains).
• Fighter: Human fighter. Has the bonus feats and skill points already worked in to the class features.
• Rogue: Human rogue. Has the bonus feats and skill points already worked in to the class features.
• Wizard: Human wizard. Has the bonus feats and skill points already worked in to the class features.
• Dwarf: Dwarf fighter; possibly with racial substitution levels worked in. Or, maybe a dwarf fighter that automatically switches over/multiclasses into Dwarven Defender (or a any-AL version of that class).
• Elf: Elf with the battle sorcerer variant class from UA; maybe one that automatically switches over/multiclasses into Eldritch Knight.
• Halfling: Halfling with the wilderness rogue variant class from UA.

There still could be expanded options for this variety of D&D, esp. since the Voyage of the Princess Ark articles and the Gazetteers introduced new options for classes as well as new classes. For example:

• Gnome: Gnome with the beguiler class, or a gnome with the artificer class (ala Eberron).
• Orc: Orc with the barbarian class (or an any-AL variant of it), perhaps with racial substitution levels.
• Half-Elf: Character option. Can begin play with a human class (though without the human's bonus feat or skill points) or the elf class (without the elf racial abilities), with the half-elf racial abilities instead.
• Half-Orc: Character option. Can begin play with a human class (though without the human's bonus feat or skill points) or the orc class (without the orc racial abilities), with the half-orc racial abilities instead.
• Barbarian/Berserker: Human barbarian.
• Mystic: Human monk; or perhaps a variant that allows for a monk of any AL. Has the bonus feats and skill points already worked in to the class features.
• Paladin: Available as a 10-level or 15-level Prestige Class for Good-aligned (or LG-aligned) Fighters.
• Blackguard/Avenger: Available as a 10-level or 15-level Prestige Class for Evil-aligned (or CE-aligned) Fighters.
• Knight: Available as a 10-level or 15-level Prestige Class for any-aligned (usually Neutral-aligned) Fighters.
• Druid: Available as a 10-level or 15-level Prestige Class for Neutral-aligned Clerics. Uses Druid spells, switches Domains to Animal & Plant, spontaneous summon nature's ally instead of cure/inflict, weapon & armor restrictions, etc.
• Bard: Non-spellcasting variant PrC available as a 10-level or 15-level Prestige Class for Rogues.
• Ranger: Non-spellcasting variant PrC available as a 10-level or 15-level Prestige Class for Fighters.
• Loremaster/Magus: The Loremaster PrC for the "settled" wizard (whether a tower-dwelling wizard or court wizard).
• Assassin/Thug: Non-spellcasting variant PrC available for Evil-aligned Rogues.

What's y'alls take on all of this?

 

[blargney the second]

Just add Bargle.

 

[thedungeondelver]

Just add Bargle.

Bring back Black Dougal and Morgan Ironwolf! Woo!

(Best of luck explaining to the newbs why Black Dougal died, though! )

 

[Garnfellow]

I think a project like this would be pretty cool, and I was thinking of the exact same approach you've suggested for the classes and races: essentially, make a series of 3e "iconics" for each major class/race combo, and develop stats for each iconic for each level (I'd only go to 12th level, and because races and classes are balanced, I wouldn't cap any of the demihumans at less than 12th).

Then I'd fold all of the iconics' feat, skill, class, and racial abilities in as standard class abilities. No multiclassing, no feat selection (although maybe some levels could offer a choice of 2-3 abilities or ability trees, like d20 Modern), and no skill point allocation (it's built into the classes).

For example, our iconic fourth level 3e fighter gets Weapon Specialization as a bonus feat; that would become a BD&D fighter class ability at 4th level.

I would be tempted to simplify skills by using a broad grouping scheme like Iron Heroes or True20 uses -- maybe pare the skill list down to 10 or even less skills.

For alignment, we're also thinking along similar lines: rather than go all the way back to a 3-point system I'd go back to the simplified system from Holmes: LG, LE, N, CG, CE

I think just those changes would get one pretty dang close to a BD&D feel and simplicity while retaining most of the advantages and innovations of the d20 system. Obviously, what is sacrificed here is the ability for players to finely customize their character with feats, skills, and multiclassing.

 

[PapersAndPaychecks]

Well, I think the way you'd do it would be to start with an open source project that had done three quarters of the work for you. Such as this one, for example. Then you'd adapt it to achieve what you wanted.

 

[S'mon]

I basically did this for my PBEM game - see attached (hopefully).

The big difference from old Moldvay was ascending Armour Class for combat; I stuck with d20-roll-under-stat for skills since it keeps the stat itself important.

Edit: Oh, I agree with Papers & Paychecks, BFRPG is great; I like using my actual Moldvay and Cook B/X books, but BFRPG is great if you don't have those to hand.

 

[Cthulhudrew]

Combine race & class for the core Classes. In order to capture the feel of the game, Dwarf, Elf, and Halfling would have to be classes in their own right. Still allow for full progression instead of placing level caps (since 3.X has given humans abilities to put them on par with other races).

Off the top of my head, if you go this route, you might want to consider using/incorporating/expanding the Racial Paragon Prestige Classes (IIRC, from Unearthed Arcana and, thus, the SRD).

Still digesting the rest of your post, but that's my first thought.

 

[AFGNCAAP]

Off the top of my head, if you go this route, you might want to consider using/incorporating/expanding the Racial Paragon Prestige Classes (IIRC, from Unearthed Arcana and, thus, the SRD).

Still digesting the rest of your post, but that's my first thought.

I considered doing that, actually. However, I opted against it due to the stat boost at 3rd, and the mix of class/cross-class skills that would result. I may reconsider this--then again, if I do, I'll mix in Human Paragon with the human BD&D classes as well.

Though I've considered having a variant wizard or bard as the basis for the Elf class, I went with the Battle Sorcerer variant due to the increased Hit Die, the ability to wear armor & cast spells, & the wizard/sorcerer spell list access (which is on par with the Elf class in BD&D); not to mention the any-AL aspect of it (unlike the non-Lawful-AL only aspect or the bard). Also, it's a way from Charisma from being a dump stat once more (I know that Elves used to have spellbooks in BD&D, but I always saw their magic being more innate rather than from study). Though the class variant only allows for light armor, what Feats are still allowed to be chosen from would include Armored Caster (from Complete Arcane, IIRC) that would allow them to cast spells while wearing heavier armor.

I'm considering using a variant Fighter or Knight class for the Dwarf class; I always thought that they should've had the best class Hit Die for a revamped version of BD&D. Only thing is the Lawful-AL only aspect of the Knight & Dwarven Defender; otherwise I'd use them right off the bat.

I considered a Ranger or Scout variant for the Halfling class, but ultimately, the Wilderness Rogue variant class seems to be the best fit.

A human barbarian can recapture the Berserker NPC (and maybe, Berserker PC option), while Monk captures the Mystic class quite well (only thing is the AL bit, but I think it's a side effect of the L/N/C-only bit of BD&D). A Rogue/Assassin can cover the Thug NPC class just fine.

I wasn't going to focus on creating Elf, Dwarf, or Halfling Cleric variants, mainly because I still intended to use the NPC classes from the DMG (and adepts would wind up taking over those roles).

I'm still trying to figure out what to do about the Druid, Paladin, Knight, and Avenger/Blackguard PrCs (I also can't recall what Magic-User or Thief sorts of "proto-PrCs" there were in B/E/C/M-D&D). Druid seems to be the most out of whack, since the spell list switches over from Cleric to Druid (rather than adding on Druid spells to the Cleric spells, IIRC). The Knight, IIRC, seems to be more a title thing rather than a real "proto-PrC" like the Paladin and Avenger/Blackguard.

Then there's the slew of options from the Gazetteers and the Voyage of the Princess Ark articles in Dragon. Rapiers popped up in a Gazetteer, so I'm leaving it in because of that (as well as the scimitar for a saber/cutlass option); so did Orc, Goblin, Kobold, & Ogre classes (IIRC). The Dragon articles introduce options like Half-Elves, Bard thief variants (sorta akin to the Druid cleric variants), Druidic Knights, Gnomes (IIRC), etc.

The more I think about it, the more inclined I am to have Artificer serve as the basis for an "optional" Gnome class. Gnomes seemed to have the tech-experimenter feel to them even back then. It introduces a whole new mechanic to the game, but then again, it is an "optional" class. I may reconsider going with something more illusion-oriented, though, like the Beguiler (since, IIRC, there was in emphasis on illusion then, too). Then again, I may have them be Artificers who're really good at making illusion-based stuff.

The monsters shouldn't be rough, though it's a matter of recalling what was released when. I recall the "Basic 6" dragons well enough, but I'm hazy on the "Master 6" and the "Immortal 3". I think the "Immortal 3" were gem-related, and were equivalent to the Platinum Dragon/Ruby Dragon/Chromatic Dragon of their ruleset/time. The "Master 6" were essentially reversals of the "Basic 6": Neutral Crsytal dragons, Lawful Obsidian dragons, Lawful Emerald dragons, Neutral Sapphire dragons, Lawful Ruby dragons, and the Chaotic Brown dragons. Also, IIRC, there were only demons (and not the demon/devil split) in BD&D.

 

[Cthulhudrew]

I see your point about the Paragon classes. They might fit be a good basis for Prestige Classes, still, if you want to preserve the Attack Rank feel of the upper level demihumans from BECMI.