just getting into 3rd edtion

[Dandu]

All of these are level 9 spells, or in the first case, require CL 20. That doesn't excuse their brokenness. But it's a little disingenuous to compare abilities gained at level 5 (IH Surge and WR Tactics) to ones gained at level 17+!

Binding a Nightmare requires the fifth level spell Lesser Planar Binding. Doable by a 9th level wizard.

Or a lower level one with a scroll...

Did you take the feats that grant unnaturally long reach, Dandu? Because that's some impressive stretching.

Yoga. And in what world is infinite actions from WRT not impressive stretching? Furthermore, how come there's only one broken thing in ToB that people in this thread are focusing on, whereas many of the broken tactics I have listed in core go unchallenged?

Your whole anti-matter argument rests on a single line of generic text saying that the material plane is basically earth? Last time I checked, the DM decides the little details like is there antimatter, what's out in space, or "is this world round or flat?"

The DM also decides whether WRT operates like you said it does. WRT only operates to give infinite actions according to a certain reading that even Charop members don't fully support.

In any case, even the most minuscule amount of antimatter would not be inexpensive.

Hold on. What happens when the price of antimatter in the real world drops dramatically as we master the techniques of creating it efficiently to power star-ships such as the Enterprise or the Daedalus?

And would probably either be wildly unsafe to have on your person, or otherwise would quickly cease to exist as it came into contact with matter.

Antimatter-matter particle pairs known as virtual particles come into existence all the time in the space around us, popping into existence and annihilating themselves in time spans almost too short to imagine. Creating a miniscule amount of antimatter is not hazardous; your body can stand to lose an electron or two.

When your DM actually allows you to get away with all of this in an actual game, come see me. So I know to avoid that DM's games.

No DM will allow the interpretation of WRT allowing infinite actions either. It seems that you've been hoist on your own petard.

Checkmate, I sunk your battleship. King me. Bazinga.

ps. Corrected your spelling mistakes. No thanks are necessary.

 

[Greg K]

Personally, the only WOTC supplements that I liked were Unearthed Arcana, some of the monster books (especially, Fiendish Codex I), Heroes of Horror and Storrmwrack. Complete Warrior and Complete Mage had some stuff that I liked as well.

But, yeah, definitely, start with core. I'd also say don't be afraid to look at third party material when you get comfortable with core. there are several threads on these boards regarding great third party products.

 

[rgard]

Personally, the only WOTC supplements that I liked were Unearthed Arcana, some of the monster books (especially, Fiendish Codex I), Heroes of Horror and Storrmwrack. Complete Warrior and Complete Mage had some stuff that I liked as well.

But, yeah, definitely, start with core. I'd also say don't be afraid to look at third party material when you get comfortable with core. there are several threads on these boards regarding great third party products.

Those are all good. I'd add Complete Arcane. I wasn't a fan to begin with, but grew to like the Warlock.

 

[Dandu]

But, yeah, definitely, start with core. I'd also say don't be afraid to look at third party material when you get comfortable with core. there are several threads on these boards regarding great third party products.

State that you will allow books that your players bring. Now you have access to more books with no cost to yourself.

Profit!

 

[Greg K]

State that you will allow books that your players bring. Now you have access to more books with no cost to yourself.

Profit!

No, I list the books that are allowed for a) house rules and b) the campaign setting being run. That is what the players get to work with. Saves me from what I find aggravating material and saves their money

 

[Greg K]

Those are all good. I'd add Complete Arcane. I wasn't a fan to begin with, but grew to like the Warlock.

Yeah, Complete Arcane also has some good stuff- not a lot, imo, but enough. I would like the Warlock, but Book of Fiends has a class that fills a similar role and I prefer it (and limit to an NPC class).

 

[StreamOfTheSky]

Yoga. And in what world is infinite actions from WRT not impressive stretching? Furthermore, how come there's only one broken thing in ToB that people in this thread are focusing on, whereas many of the broken tactics I have listed in core go unchallenged?

When did I say...anything about WRT infinite actions? Your antimatter argument is a massive stretch. Whether WRT infinite looping is or not is irrelevant.

The DM also decides whether WRT operates like you said it does. WRT only operates to give infinite actions according to a certain reading that even Charop members don't fully support..

Definitely. I ban the use of WRT on yourself in my games, for example. It's just too good by RAW. I've considered restricting it to only affect one creature once/encounter, and to make up for the nerf extend the range to something like 30-60 ft so it's easier to catch the entire party once each over the course of a fight. I've seen what a group of PCs all with WRT buffing each other ot keep getting turn after turn can do, and it's pretty ugly.

Hold on. What happens when the price of antimatter in the real world drops dramatically as we master the techniques of creating it efficiently to power star-ships such as the Enterprise or the Daedalus?
Antimatter-matter particle pairs known as virtual particles come into existence all the time in the space around us, popping into existence and annihilating themselves in time spans almost too short to imagine. Creating a miniscule amount of antimatter is not hazardous; your body can stand to lose an electron or two.
No DM will allow the interpretation of WRT allowing infinite actions either. It seems that you've been hoist on your own petard.

I. Never. Talked. About. WRT. I was attacking your ridiculous arguments, not supporting someone else's ridiculous argument. But, in your exaltation, you at least managed to derail your own ridiculous argument. "No DM will allow it." Bingo! That's what I said in my post regarding all the crazy stuff you were saying casters can expect to do in an actual game. It looks like you agree.

Checkmate, I sunk your battleship. King me. Bazinga.

....C....C....C...Combo Breaker! ?

ps. Corrected your spelling mistakes. No thanks are necessary.

*Shrug* I already wasted enough time responding to you, why would I waste more of it spell checking?

 

[Dandu]

When did I say...anything about WRT infinite actions? Your antimatter argument is a massive stretch. Whether WRT infinite looping is or not is irrelevant.

Your argument is valid, however, why do you not to after an equally wrong argument? I'm flattered that you consider me important enough to respond to, but you should correct the other misconception for the good of enlightening the new player.

I. Never. Talked. About. WRT. I was attacking your ridiculous arguments, not supporting someone else's ridiculous argument. But, in your exaltation, you at least managed to derail your own ridiculous argument. "No DM will allow it." Bingo! That's what I said in my post regarding all the crazy stuff you were saying casters can expect to do in an actual game. It looks like you agree.

Indeed I do. My point was that yeah, you can technically do insane things, but as no DM will allow them anyways, it's really a rather academic subject.

....C....C....C...Combo Breaker! ?

In America.

*Shrug* I already wasted enough time responding to you, why would I waste more of it spell checking?

If ur going 2 du soemthing, du it rite.

 

[StreamOfTheSky]

Your argument is valid, however, why do you not to after an equally wrong argument? I'm flattered that you consider me important enough to respond to, but you should correct the other misconception for the good of enlightening the new player.

Mainly because I'm not familiar with the infinite action trick with WRT. Infinite loops are just one thing in particular I generally don't even bother reading about (Pun Pun the main exception, because you just have to read that!) since the premise alone is just so beyond what any actual game would ever allow. I mean, I know the maneuver rather well, I've used it a lot. I've been in groups where most of the party had it and we may not have done inifinite actions, but we had enough in a row to make any encounter a joke. The thing with the antimatter was just that it requires so much willingness on the part of the DM to make the "right" judgement calls to make it work. Something like using WRT repeatedly seems like more of something that rules allow on their own. You either have another swift action and maneuver readied to use WRT again or you don't. With the availability of antimatter in the campaign, it's much more reliant on DM fiat to work. I imagine.

Indeed I do. My point was that yeah, you can technically do insane things, but as no DM will allow them anyways, it's really a rather academic subject.

Ok, that's fair then. I do think even without insane tricks, WRT and IHS are very powerful for the low level you get them at. Then again, ditto for Wings of Cover and Abrupt Jaunt (both of which I nerfed with extreme prejudice, incidentally). I actually really like the ToB. My main issues with it are how it left all the other non-casters in the dust (which I can fix by boosting said classes with houserules, so eh, not much of an issue) and the damage dealt. I know, the argument is that they do no more than a raging barb or a one trick charge build Paladin/Fighter. But that's still a lot of damage. And the non adept classes had to invest alot more or face far more situational circumstances under which they can do that high damage. I mostly just have to ask, "Most people agree the issue for melee characters was never the damage they dealt (if it were an issue, Evocation wouldn't be considered the weakest school and focused fire wouldn't be the preferred 'tactic' groups use in combat), but rather...every single other aspect of the game. So great, ToB gave them abilities to buff, to dispel magical affects, to do some battlefield control and lockdown, and so forth. But why did they deel the need to provide such insane damage boosting strikes? Or the abusive damage potential you can get with Stormguard Warrior and 10 or more brain cells to know what to do with it?" Those are my issues with ToB.

In America.

In America, Soviet Russia jokes make you.

If ur going 2 du soemthing, du it rite.

L0L, yur tiepen's all meesed up!

 

[Dandu]

Mainly because I'm not familiar with the infinite action trick with WRT.

tl;dr: You can use WRT to give new actions to an ally, including yourself, as a swift action. This can enable infinite loops when read in a certain way. However, it's also possible that it doesn't; the rules are ambiguous in this area.