Just *how* big is that gold piece again?
- Thread starter LazarusLong42
- Start date
Altalazar
First Post
D&D vastly simplifies and dilutes the value of money, from a medieval perspective.
I am reading Quicksilver by Neal Stephenson, and there is a part where two of the characters are haggling in a market to buy a prism from a merchant, and it was rather long and complicated, involving only a handful of small denomination coins - and it involved extensive discussion about the origin and probable value of each of those coins, including their condition and apparent trustworthiness. It was utterly fascinating (Stephenson did his research on this) and it made me realize just how all of that is totally glossed over in D&D.
Not only that, but the monetary value is vastly deflated - in medieval times, a gold piece could feed a family for a year (or more). Most people probably never saw so much money. Thousands of them seems unthinkable.
One thing I'd like to see is more realism with currency - just because I like trade to be realistic - it also allows players to get more involved in the trade in the world (as they build their own strongholds and perhaps even cities).
One protection against shaving was a ridged edge - like we have on some of our coins now - if you shaved it, the ridges would be shaved off.
Also, I like money to be more valuable - so a handful of assorted gold and silver coins ought to be enough to go rather far. In the book, someone needs travelling money to go a long distance and they take a promissary note to a lender for a SINGLE POUND - which he gets in the form of a nice, silver coin. And it does go far. I rather like that. It makes money more valuable and easier to imagine. If you know a gold coin is a HUGE amount of money it isn't hard to imagine how valuable 20 gold coins would be - and 20 is a number you can picture in your head. 20,000 just blends into 200,000 as a really big number.
Of course, this is hard to do with published adventures, unless you just divide everything by 10 or 100, perhaps making up coins as you go (or dividing them as the case may be, into bits...)
Has anyone else done strange and funky things with currency? More realistic things?
I am reading Quicksilver by Neal Stephenson, and there is a part where two of the characters are haggling in a market to buy a prism from a merchant, and it was rather long and complicated, involving only a handful of small denomination coins - and it involved extensive discussion about the origin and probable value of each of those coins, including their condition and apparent trustworthiness. It was utterly fascinating (Stephenson did his research on this) and it made me realize just how all of that is totally glossed over in D&D.
Not only that, but the monetary value is vastly deflated - in medieval times, a gold piece could feed a family for a year (or more). Most people probably never saw so much money. Thousands of them seems unthinkable.
One thing I'd like to see is more realism with currency - just because I like trade to be realistic - it also allows players to get more involved in the trade in the world (as they build their own strongholds and perhaps even cities).
One protection against shaving was a ridged edge - like we have on some of our coins now - if you shaved it, the ridges would be shaved off.
Also, I like money to be more valuable - so a handful of assorted gold and silver coins ought to be enough to go rather far. In the book, someone needs travelling money to go a long distance and they take a promissary note to a lender for a SINGLE POUND - which he gets in the form of a nice, silver coin. And it does go far. I rather like that. It makes money more valuable and easier to imagine. If you know a gold coin is a HUGE amount of money it isn't hard to imagine how valuable 20 gold coins would be - and 20 is a number you can picture in your head. 20,000 just blends into 200,000 as a really big number.
Of course, this is hard to do with published adventures, unless you just divide everything by 10 or 100, perhaps making up coins as you go (or dividing them as the case may be, into bits...)
Has anyone else done strange and funky things with currency? More realistic things?
The Mirrorball Man
Aventurier
Mithril pieces? What kind of people would be stupid enough to carry that kind of money in their purse? If there is such a word as "roguebait", I guess we've found the first perfect synonym of "mithril piece". 
Although they would look good in a red dragon's treasure, mithril pieces would be extremely difficult to use in a standard fantasy setting, in my opinion. They would be difficult to make, and most shops wouldn't even accept them as payement. If you really want to expand on the standard D&D monetary system, you'd be better off using bills of exchange and other forms of paper money, in my opinion.
Although they would look good in a red dragon's treasure, mithril pieces would be extremely difficult to use in a standard fantasy setting, in my opinion. They would be difficult to make, and most shops wouldn't even accept them as payement. If you really want to expand on the standard D&D monetary system, you'd be better off using bills of exchange and other forms of paper money, in my opinion.
Woohoo! I can pull up something I wrote a while back:
Our own history shows us that individual arbitrary monetary decisions can be passed down for centuries. The vast majority of European monetary systems were originally based upon the decisions of Charlemagne, who ruled that the fundamental unit of value would be a one livre de Troyes (pound of the French market city called Troy) of silver, which would be divisible into 240 denier (from the Latin denarius--a small silver coin. With some alterations. Denier becomes some variant of "penny" in northern Europe, named for a King Penning who made excellent-quality denier coins. This system survived into the 1800s in nearly all of Europe, with the British Pound, Spanish Peso, French Livre, and Italian Lira, all of which mean "pound" (even the German Mark comes from an obsolete half-pound measure called the "mark"). Likewise, Charlemagne's "base-240" division of his livre was used until the 20th century in parts of Europe (England didn't begin using decimal currency until the 1960s, for example).
Therefore, it doesn't stretch the boundaries of human nature too much to presume that a culture might retain apparently arbitrary and archaic monetary practices for more than 1000 years. Let us presume that, long ago, in the old Suloise Empire, there was a treasurer's assistant named Egar the Fastidious. Emperor Zeeckar appoints him in 4123 SD to regularize the currency as part of that Emperor's overal vitalization and "purification" program.
Egar comes to the conclusion that the best way to protect against counterfeiting is to rigidly standardize all currency. Thus, under his advice, Zeeckar issues the Currency Purification Act. From that point onwards, the only legal Suloise currency was to weight 50 per Suloise Pound (50 being the emperor's age at the time). Likewise, this currency was fixed at a diameter equal to that encompassed by Emperor Zeeckar's thumb and forefinger and of a thickness so that twenty in a stack should equal the length of the first joint of the emperor's thumb (which coincidentally makes for a coin the diameter of a US 50-cent piece and the thickness of a US dime). Egar's anti-counterfeiting method was to measure the water displacement of a measured weight of coins.
These standards would be difficult to carry out, since they required mixing the precious metals with a great deal of "base" metals (called "debasement"). Zeeckar nevertheless approved because they could be used as an excuse to mint enormous amounts of low-quality coins in order to finance his Purity Wars. While his successors attempted many times to reform this public-relations disaster, wars and debt often forced them to return to Egar's debased system. Two changes that did become popular were the addition of "half coins" (diameter of a US nickel) and "third coins" (diameter of a US dime), both of the same thickness as "whole coins". The "three-quarter coins" (diameter of a US Sacajawea dollar) and "two-third coins" (diameter of a US quarter) were also used but were less popular. Since these coins were all struck at the same thickness, their value was equal to their "size" compared to a "whole coin" of the same alleged metal content.
We now come to present-day Oerth. Even though other coins now are commonly used, the standard of exchange is still Egar's Coinage, which is still struck the mint of the City of Greyhawk and other decadent locales where one can expect a highly debased coinage. Several younger and wealthier realms have abandoned the size requirements, although for some reason the idea of 50 coins per Suloise Pound is still very popular.
In any case, enough game background, let's get to rules.
A few slight adjustments had to be made in order to get all the coins to actually fit the size and weight requirements. This changed the value of the silver coin, but in no way that is grossly complicated. I realize that I could have just hand-waved and said "It's magic." But it's the copout of an inferior mind to just pull out "it's magic" for every tricky detail. Thus, I presumed that coins would be alloyed with zinc or lead, two popular choices for making coin alloys in our own world--because they are very *CHEAP*. A "magical" solution wouldn't be cheap enough to use for coinage unless the world has every peasant carrying a +1 pocketknife and wearing enchanted clothing.
The basic Egar coinage system (using the rates of exchange of Greyhawk City) is as follows:
[PRE]
Coin Purity Value (in "The Gold")
The Copper 87% 1/100
The Silver 66% 1/5
The Gold 16% 1
The Platinum 14% 10
[/PRE]
Greyhawk also mints half-coppers, half-silvers, third-silvers, half-golds, and half-platinums. Except for The Copper, the base metal used is zinc. Lead is used in The Copper. The very low purity of "gold" and "platinum" coinage makes them susceptable to counterfeiting with lead and zinc. The "gold" coins aren't even yellow.
As I said, other realms have been more free with this system. They have kept the 50 coins per pound principle but abandoned the unwieldy size in favor of smaller-volume, higher-purity coinage. The Fyrondy Crown is very popular, being a 95% gold coin the size of a Greyhawk "half coin" (but still 50 per pound). It is valued at 6 to the Greyhawk Gold on the street. Since this is actually slightly higher than its metal value, Greyhawk has attempted to outlaw its use within city confines to no avail.
Other coin sizes at the "50 per pound" principle are presented below for your use:
Copper Coins
Size Purity Remainder Exchange
Quarter 5% Pb 1/1750 (aka "slugs"--used
by peasants for making change)
Dollar 60% Zn 1/145
Coin 87% Pb 1/100
Silver Coins
Size Purity Remainder Exchange
Quarter 10% Pb 1/32
Dollar 36% Zn 1/9
Coin 66% Zn 1/5
Gold Coins
Size Purity Remainder Exchange
Dollar 9% Zn 9/16
Coin 16% Zn 1
Quarter 33% Zn 2 1/16
3/4 Coin 41% Zn 2 9/16
Nickel 49% Zn 3 1/16
2/3 Coin 59% Zn 3 11/16
1/2 Coin 95% Zn 5 15/16
Platinum Coins
Size Purity Remainder Exchange
Dollar 8% Zn 5 5/7
Coin 14% Zn 10
Quarter 28% Zn 20
3/4 Coin 35% Zn 25
Nickel 42% Zn 30
2/3 Coin 51% Zn 36 3/7
1/2 Coin 81% Zn 57 6/7
Penny 92% Zn 65 5/7
Quarter 8% Ag 6
3/4 Coin 18% Ag 13 1/9
Nickel 26% Ag 18 4/5
2/3 Coin 38% Ag 27 1/3
Penny 40% Au 32 1/3
Notes:
"Size" either gives the equivalent US coin size or the "Coin" size as explained above. All these coins weigh 50 per US pound. The US "dollar" coin is the Sacajawea dollar coin. "Exchange" is the nominal value in the "Greyhawk Gold" that I'm presuming is the standard D&D "gold piece". "Remainder" names to the "filler" metal used to adjust the weight. The value of silver or gold used to "fill" platinum coins has been taken into account.
Our own history shows us that individual arbitrary monetary decisions can be passed down for centuries. The vast majority of European monetary systems were originally based upon the decisions of Charlemagne, who ruled that the fundamental unit of value would be a one livre de Troyes (pound of the French market city called Troy) of silver, which would be divisible into 240 denier (from the Latin denarius--a small silver coin. With some alterations. Denier becomes some variant of "penny" in northern Europe, named for a King Penning who made excellent-quality denier coins. This system survived into the 1800s in nearly all of Europe, with the British Pound, Spanish Peso, French Livre, and Italian Lira, all of which mean "pound" (even the German Mark comes from an obsolete half-pound measure called the "mark"). Likewise, Charlemagne's "base-240" division of his livre was used until the 20th century in parts of Europe (England didn't begin using decimal currency until the 1960s, for example).
Therefore, it doesn't stretch the boundaries of human nature too much to presume that a culture might retain apparently arbitrary and archaic monetary practices for more than 1000 years. Let us presume that, long ago, in the old Suloise Empire, there was a treasurer's assistant named Egar the Fastidious. Emperor Zeeckar appoints him in 4123 SD to regularize the currency as part of that Emperor's overal vitalization and "purification" program.
Egar comes to the conclusion that the best way to protect against counterfeiting is to rigidly standardize all currency. Thus, under his advice, Zeeckar issues the Currency Purification Act. From that point onwards, the only legal Suloise currency was to weight 50 per Suloise Pound (50 being the emperor's age at the time). Likewise, this currency was fixed at a diameter equal to that encompassed by Emperor Zeeckar's thumb and forefinger and of a thickness so that twenty in a stack should equal the length of the first joint of the emperor's thumb (which coincidentally makes for a coin the diameter of a US 50-cent piece and the thickness of a US dime). Egar's anti-counterfeiting method was to measure the water displacement of a measured weight of coins.
These standards would be difficult to carry out, since they required mixing the precious metals with a great deal of "base" metals (called "debasement"). Zeeckar nevertheless approved because they could be used as an excuse to mint enormous amounts of low-quality coins in order to finance his Purity Wars. While his successors attempted many times to reform this public-relations disaster, wars and debt often forced them to return to Egar's debased system. Two changes that did become popular were the addition of "half coins" (diameter of a US nickel) and "third coins" (diameter of a US dime), both of the same thickness as "whole coins". The "three-quarter coins" (diameter of a US Sacajawea dollar) and "two-third coins" (diameter of a US quarter) were also used but were less popular. Since these coins were all struck at the same thickness, their value was equal to their "size" compared to a "whole coin" of the same alleged metal content.
We now come to present-day Oerth. Even though other coins now are commonly used, the standard of exchange is still Egar's Coinage, which is still struck the mint of the City of Greyhawk and other decadent locales where one can expect a highly debased coinage. Several younger and wealthier realms have abandoned the size requirements, although for some reason the idea of 50 coins per Suloise Pound is still very popular.
In any case, enough game background, let's get to rules.
A few slight adjustments had to be made in order to get all the coins to actually fit the size and weight requirements. This changed the value of the silver coin, but in no way that is grossly complicated. I realize that I could have just hand-waved and said "It's magic." But it's the copout of an inferior mind to just pull out "it's magic" for every tricky detail. Thus, I presumed that coins would be alloyed with zinc or lead, two popular choices for making coin alloys in our own world--because they are very *CHEAP*. A "magical" solution wouldn't be cheap enough to use for coinage unless the world has every peasant carrying a +1 pocketknife and wearing enchanted clothing.
The basic Egar coinage system (using the rates of exchange of Greyhawk City) is as follows:
[PRE]
Coin Purity Value (in "The Gold")
The Copper 87% 1/100
The Silver 66% 1/5
The Gold 16% 1
The Platinum 14% 10
[/PRE]
Greyhawk also mints half-coppers, half-silvers, third-silvers, half-golds, and half-platinums. Except for The Copper, the base metal used is zinc. Lead is used in The Copper. The very low purity of "gold" and "platinum" coinage makes them susceptable to counterfeiting with lead and zinc. The "gold" coins aren't even yellow.
As I said, other realms have been more free with this system. They have kept the 50 coins per pound principle but abandoned the unwieldy size in favor of smaller-volume, higher-purity coinage. The Fyrondy Crown is very popular, being a 95% gold coin the size of a Greyhawk "half coin" (but still 50 per pound). It is valued at 6 to the Greyhawk Gold on the street. Since this is actually slightly higher than its metal value, Greyhawk has attempted to outlaw its use within city confines to no avail.
Other coin sizes at the "50 per pound" principle are presented below for your use:
Copper Coins
Size Purity Remainder Exchange
Quarter 5% Pb 1/1750 (aka "slugs"--used
by peasants for making change)
Dollar 60% Zn 1/145
Coin 87% Pb 1/100
Silver Coins
Size Purity Remainder Exchange
Quarter 10% Pb 1/32
Dollar 36% Zn 1/9
Coin 66% Zn 1/5
Gold Coins
Size Purity Remainder Exchange
Dollar 9% Zn 9/16
Coin 16% Zn 1
Quarter 33% Zn 2 1/16
3/4 Coin 41% Zn 2 9/16
Nickel 49% Zn 3 1/16
2/3 Coin 59% Zn 3 11/16
1/2 Coin 95% Zn 5 15/16
Platinum Coins
Size Purity Remainder Exchange
Dollar 8% Zn 5 5/7
Coin 14% Zn 10
Quarter 28% Zn 20
3/4 Coin 35% Zn 25
Nickel 42% Zn 30
2/3 Coin 51% Zn 36 3/7
1/2 Coin 81% Zn 57 6/7
Penny 92% Zn 65 5/7
Quarter 8% Ag 6
3/4 Coin 18% Ag 13 1/9
Nickel 26% Ag 18 4/5
2/3 Coin 38% Ag 27 1/3
Penny 40% Au 32 1/3
Notes:
"Size" either gives the equivalent US coin size or the "Coin" size as explained above. All these coins weigh 50 per US pound. The US "dollar" coin is the Sacajawea dollar coin. "Exchange" is the nominal value in the "Greyhawk Gold" that I'm presuming is the standard D&D "gold piece". "Remainder" names to the "filler" metal used to adjust the weight. The value of silver or gold used to "fill" platinum coins has been taken into account.
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The A Mighty Fortress historical supplement had a simplified version of the currency around in 17th century Europe. Even that can give you some idea as to why most everybody went decimal.
Varying values, varying weights, currency speculation, inflation and deflation. economic upturns and downturns. It can get involved. Not the sort of thing for heroic adventurers. And since most folks' education doesn't cover the dreary science, it's not something most players and GMs are going to be into.
The sad thing is that not only is a modern education dreadfully shallow, it's narrow as well. What with all the focus on knowing things relevant to modern life, instead of teaching the child how to learn new things, even after school life is done.
'Tis a small life indeed that knows only asphalt and street lamps.
Varying values, varying weights, currency speculation, inflation and deflation. economic upturns and downturns. It can get involved. Not the sort of thing for heroic adventurers. And since most folks' education doesn't cover the dreary science, it's not something most players and GMs are going to be into.
The sad thing is that not only is a modern education dreadfully shallow, it's narrow as well. What with all the focus on knowing things relevant to modern life, instead of teaching the child how to learn new things, even after school life is done.
'Tis a small life indeed that knows only asphalt and street lamps.
THis is fairly interesting for medieval geeks, but is it going to add anything to your game? IMO it's just going to make the player's heads swim and feel that you are being complicated just for the sake of being complicated. I'll add a bit of flavor, calling one kingdom's coins "golden crowns" and another's "gold lions" and so forth, but the players all know that this means 'gold piece'.
If you want to include some ancient coinage, I encourage against making them debased. From the player's point of view, they are just getting screwed out of treasure. Oh look, a thousand gold pieces! What - they're from the ancient kingdom of Whosits, so they are only worth 200!
Now if you want special coins make them worth more. Players will care a little more about your history when they learn that these large Baklunish coins are worth twice as much as normal coins.
If you want to include some ancient coinage, I encourage against making them debased. From the player's point of view, they are just getting screwed out of treasure. Oh look, a thousand gold pieces! What - they're from the ancient kingdom of Whosits, so they are only worth 200!
Now if you want special coins make them worth more. Players will care a little more about your history when they learn that these large Baklunish coins are worth twice as much as normal coins.
Altalazar
First Post
maddman75 said:
Yes - if the "standard" currency is the debased one, then it can be something special to find a chest full of coins (200 gold coins) then, upon further inspection, to see that they have the seal of the kingdom of Kazacan, meaning they are the purest currency in the land - worth 10 times what normal "Harry-Dubloons" are worth.
I just hate how gold coins are cheapened in the game. They should be something so rare that no one who isn't rich should ever even have seen one. Instead, they are passed around like popcorn by peasants shopping at the market.
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