Justice League
- Thread starter Morrus
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shilsen
Adventurer
Haven't seen JLA in ages, since I don't get the channel, but that's something I noticed as soon as I started watching it. IMO, Superman on screen (in the movies too, for example) has always been toned down from the comic books, presumably to make it easier to create credible threats for him.
Klaus
First Post
Superman in the JL cartoon in much closer in power-level to the John Byrne Superman from the 1986 Man of Steel relaunch. Since then, writers have begun increasing their powers to absurd 1950s levels for no good reason. For instance, in Grant Morrison's JLA, Superman had to prevent the moon from rocketing into Earth. He theorized that, in the weak moon gravity, Superman would be six times as strong as in Earth's (too bad the electro-supes debacle caught up with him right then). And it was an amazing, almost impossible feat of strength. But writers since have shown him ripping planetoids apart to vent his anger at Lex being president and stuff!
You can also notice that Batman in the cartoon isn't the uber-god he is in the comics, and takes some time to knock out a goon. And Green Lantern can't just lift Manhattan with his ring (as Kyle Rayner did in the first Joe Kelly issue). And Wonder Woman's lasso isn't magical (although it does seem unbreakable). And the Flash can't run around the globe to get momentum for a punch (as done in a Mark Waid issue). And the Martian Manhunter can't scan the entire USA with his telepathy (as done in a recent JLA comic).
I prefer the cartoon version...
You can also notice that Batman in the cartoon isn't the uber-god he is in the comics, and takes some time to knock out a goon. And Green Lantern can't just lift Manhattan with his ring (as Kyle Rayner did in the first Joe Kelly issue). And Wonder Woman's lasso isn't magical (although it does seem unbreakable). And the Flash can't run around the globe to get momentum for a punch (as done in a Mark Waid issue). And the Martian Manhunter can't scan the entire USA with his telepathy (as done in a recent JLA comic).
I prefer the cartoon version...
Heretic Apostate
First Post
First season, Superman was always getting pummeled. I think he gets better in the second season.Morrus said:
I seem to remember something about Superman having to consciously restrain himself, so he doesn't hurt others. Like, for instance, in the episode where Grodd uses mind control to break apart the JLA, Giganta (?) and Supe fight, and we see just how much strength Supes has (one flick of a finger, for instance).
Of course, I like the Alternate Earth episode where the Justice Lords take on the Justice League. We get to see exactly how fast the Flash really is, and why he's not just a weaker Supes...
Well, I've only seen Season 1 - but I've seen Superman knocked over by gunshots, which I just don't see as being Superman. I've also noticed that everyone in the cartoon has about equal levels of "toughness" - everything affects everyone exactly the same way. no matter what the threat is, people get knocked over with a grunt, groan a little then climb to their feet.
I don't know a great deal about the others (apart from Batman), but how tough are they? The Flash, Hawkwoman (Hawkgirl?) etc., all seem to be exactly as tough as Superman when it comes to resilience.
I don't know a great deal about the others (apart from Batman), but how tough are they? The Flash, Hawkwoman (Hawkgirl?) etc., all seem to be exactly as tough as Superman when it comes to resilience.
WayneLigon
Adventurer
In the comics:Morrus said:
The Flash, as far as toughness goes, is pretty much a normal guy. His resistance to damage comes from his control of the Speed Force (he can move momentum around, so he could steal the kinetic energy from a series of gunshots - this is something you never see him do in the cartoon, probably because it would take too much time to explain), from his ability to simply dodge a shot, to his superfast healing ability. Catch him 'flatfooted', though, and he's pretty much a normal Joe.
Hawkgirl, I'm not too sure about. I know nothing about her most recent comics incarnation, but she used to be just a slightly stronger than normal person (I think Thanagarians were more resistant to damage and stronger than humans) with the artificial wings. Interesting note: She uses a mace because using archaic weapons used to be a trademark of Hawkman's.
The Martian Manhunter. Christ on a pogo stick. MM is just as tough as Superman, plus he has about a dozen superpowers that Superman doesn't.
Wonder Woman. Extremely tough, though she can be cut, shot, etc when she's not aware of a threat enough to block it. Depending on who is writing her, she can be anywhere from 'tossing a locomotive around is no problem' strong to 'I am at least as strong as Superman' strong; more so if she's using the lasso or the material her invisible plane is made from.
John Stewart. OK, if there is someone who simply gets no love in the cartoon, it's poor ol' John. Like the Flash was almost a comedy-relief figure in first season, ol' John has only recently remembered he can use that ring for things other than making shields and the occassional hammer. A Green Lantern ring is rightly called The Most Powerful Weapon in the Universe. In the comics (where at least for now the current GL is Kyle Rayner) the Ring can do pretty much anything; Kyle's done solar-system-level telepathy, opened stargates, created matter, helped Wonder Woman move the moon, etc. All that lasts as long as he concentrates or knows a threat is there, though; he's been blindsided, shot, stabbed almost to death, etc.
Part of the confusion comes from the fast and loose application of abilities in comics themselves. Sort of an unwritten rule (along with many others) is 'in your own book, you are The Man'; when you're guest-starring in someone else's book, you may or may not be The Man. The JLA book is suppossed to showcase the heroes being just the absolute best heroes Earth has to offer, so they do a lot of things that are very over the top (like the aforementioned moving the moon thing), feats that even in their own books they may not do.
More than likely the cartoon simply tones things down to the point where they have a viable story that can be credibly told in the time they have. It's best to just think of the cartoon as it's own island of continuity that only has a loose connection to the comics universe.
Villano
First Post
I think the Justice League cartoon handles the powers as well as the old Super Friends tv series; in other words, they make things up as they go along.
The thing that really bothers me is when they can't even keep consistant within the episodes themselves. The the pilot, Superman will either nearly be killed or shrug off the blasts from the exact same laser cannon.
And Hawkgirl may be a great character, but the fact that she's a favorite of the writers comes through in the how she's portrayed as The Tick of the team. She seems to be able to do anything the writers want her to do.
For example, in the "evil Justice League" episode, they knock out the League with electricity. Right now, the spectre of lazy writing raises its ugly head when you think about the amount of electricity it would take to subdue Superman and apply that to The Flash and Batman (Hey, what's that burning smell?![:]](http://www.enworld.org/forum/images/smilies/devious.png "Devious :]")
). However, Hawkgirl shrugs off the voltage that lays low Superman! 
And then later in that episode you have Luthor and his "anti-super power ray" (or whatever it's called). Talk about lazy writing. That killed most of my interest in the show and really showcased the problems with the series, IMO: The solution to the crisis is handled as an afterthough.
Luthor has a ray that will take away the powers of altered humans (the Flash), magical beings (Wonder Woman), all types of aliens (Superman, Martian Manhunter), and people who use gadgets (Green Lantern)? Why not just have the Flintstone's Great Gazoo appear and solve everything?
And I thought it was bad when, on Super Friends, Aquaman, the Flash, Atom, and even Batman were shown flying. :\
The thing that really bothers me is when they can't even keep consistant within the episodes themselves. The the pilot, Superman will either nearly be killed or shrug off the blasts from the exact same laser cannon.
And Hawkgirl may be a great character, but the fact that she's a favorite of the writers comes through in the how she's portrayed as The Tick of the team. She seems to be able to do anything the writers want her to do.
For example, in the "evil Justice League" episode, they knock out the League with electricity. Right now, the spectre of lazy writing raises its ugly head when you think about the amount of electricity it would take to subdue Superman and apply that to The Flash and Batman (Hey, what's that burning smell?
). However, Hawkgirl shrugs off the voltage that lays low Superman! And then later in that episode you have Luthor and his "anti-super power ray" (or whatever it's called). Talk about lazy writing. That killed most of my interest in the show and really showcased the problems with the series, IMO: The solution to the crisis is handled as an afterthough.
Luthor has a ray that will take away the powers of altered humans (the Flash), magical beings (Wonder Woman), all types of aliens (Superman, Martian Manhunter), and people who use gadgets (Green Lantern)? Why not just have the Flintstone's Great Gazoo appear and solve everything?
And I thought it was bad when, on Super Friends, Aquaman, the Flash, Atom, and even Batman were shown flying. :\
Well, Superman pretty much follows the rules for dramatic tension. He has to get knocked around for awhile, and then he gets angry or determined and then smacks the bad guys down. This is alluded to in the fight between Supes and Grundy, and in the fight between Supes and King or Ace or whoever the strong Royal Flush guy was. He trades punches for awhile, holding back and rolling with the punch (ie, getting knocked around), and then he eventually raises the level of force used.
The unwritten rule is that most of the time, the JLA is using kid gloves, even on bad guys. In the episode where Supes "died", Wonder Woman took out the big threat with a burst of power and speed that would have ended the threat a whole lot earlier had she bothered, and Flash said something to the effect of "You know, I always played around in the fights, because I knew Supes would be there to protect me. I can't do that anymore."
And in the "team gets broken up by evil group" episode, Superman's damage-absorbing nature is laid clear. During a training exercise, Supes is shown taking a pounding, until finally he beats the bad hologram up and kills it (one of GL's creations). GL says "You were taking a lot of needless hits out there," and Superman flatly says something like, "We're not all created equal. I take those hits because I can, because it's one more hit that one of you doesn't have to take." Because of his power, he's got a martyr complex, and feels like he has to take all the beatings.
Didn't notice the issues with Hawkgirl on the show, but given that her mace uses electricity, I can imagine some kind of resistance to electricity on her part. As for it getting Supes, well, it was a room made by the bad guys specifically to knock their other selves out. I'm sure that Red Sun radiation or Kryptonite was involved at some level. And hey, we're all gamers here. How many times has the fighter in your group failed his Fort save only to see the weak wizard make it? Randomness happens.
Luthor's plotgun annoyed me, too, but I mentally edited it to "messes up the mental connections necessary to use those powers, so that it works regardless of whether the power comes from being an alien, gifts from the gods, mutation, or a device". Not a whole lot better, but, eh. Draining powers, regardless of the realistic viability thereof, is a staple of the comic-book world.
The unwritten rule is that most of the time, the JLA is using kid gloves, even on bad guys. In the episode where Supes "died", Wonder Woman took out the big threat with a burst of power and speed that would have ended the threat a whole lot earlier had she bothered, and Flash said something to the effect of "You know, I always played around in the fights, because I knew Supes would be there to protect me. I can't do that anymore."
And in the "team gets broken up by evil group" episode, Superman's damage-absorbing nature is laid clear. During a training exercise, Supes is shown taking a pounding, until finally he beats the bad hologram up and kills it (one of GL's creations). GL says "You were taking a lot of needless hits out there," and Superman flatly says something like, "We're not all created equal. I take those hits because I can, because it's one more hit that one of you doesn't have to take." Because of his power, he's got a martyr complex, and feels like he has to take all the beatings.
Didn't notice the issues with Hawkgirl on the show, but given that her mace uses electricity, I can imagine some kind of resistance to electricity on her part. As for it getting Supes, well, it was a room made by the bad guys specifically to knock their other selves out. I'm sure that Red Sun radiation or Kryptonite was involved at some level. And hey, we're all gamers here. How many times has the fighter in your group failed his Fort save only to see the weak wizard make it? Randomness happens.
Luthor's plotgun annoyed me, too, but I mentally edited it to "messes up the mental connections necessary to use those powers, so that it works regardless of whether the power comes from being an alien, gifts from the gods, mutation, or a device". Not a whole lot better, but, eh. Draining powers, regardless of the realistic viability thereof, is a staple of the comic-book world.
MulhorandSage
First Post
Superman is treated as a wimp in Season 1. He's back in form (for the most part) in Season 2.
Scott Bennie
Scott Bennie
Also, ditto MulhorandSage. The writers themselves said "We were trying to show that he could take a lot of punishment, and also let other people shine, in season one. Then we realized that we'd just beat him up a bunch for that whole season." In Season Two, he gets to hit back.
The writers themselves said "We were trying to show that he could take a lot of punishment, and also let other people shine, in season one. Then we realized that we'd just beat him up a bunch for that whole season." In Season Two, he gets to hit back. Similar Threads
