Justifying high level 'guards', 'pirates', 'soldiers', 'assassins', etc.

[Irda Ranger]

Oh I understand that distaste is the likely cause of the denial that hinders peoples' understanding.

But if they truly grasped the concept of relative mechanics they would describe their aversion to it in different terms, ie. "I don't like it" rather than "It doesn't make sense".

Because it makes perfect sense and works just fine. It just requires the point of reference to shift from the individuals' beloved gameworlds to the PCs.

Essentially, 4e is a game for those who actually want to play D&D as opposed to endlessly thinking and talking about it.

This is probably the most arrogant and close-minded post I've seen on EN World in about the last year and a half. I am rendered speechless by both the strength of your conviction and the degree to which you are wrong.

Suffice to say I am with Korgoth, S'Mon and others on this one. Rather than restate my arguments for why here I suggest you upgrade to community supporter account and do so searches. The evidence for why you are wrong is quite commonly stated on these boards, for those who care to look.

Good day.

 

[Irda Ranger]

I have a simple solution for anyone who wants to squash down the difference between being 20th level and being 1st level:

Don't advance Attacks & Defenses.

That's it. More HP and increased Damage are all you need to fight Trolls and Giants. The "reason" we have Minion rules in 4E is so that "1st level guards" can be dangerous at 10th level by calling them "10th level minions." But the only difference between 1st level guards and 10th level minions is +10 attack and defense. They (essentially) have the same number of HP and do the same damage.

If you don't advance Attacks & Defenses you avoid this problem in the first place. Adjust monsters in the Monster Manual accordingly by removing -1/2 per level.

 

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

This is one area where 4E kind of doesn't deliver on the promise that the heroes are "special". The PC's are special because they are doing the deeds that no one else is doing and not always because they are the only ones who can.

I don't see how this is a system issue and no an adventure design issue? The game rules don't tell you to use 15th level Human NPCs. They allow you to create them, but they don't proscribe you to flavor them as random city guards.

Or do you complain that the rules don't make it impossible to do this?


I don't know yet how I would handle such situations, but my general approach is to use "scale" monsters approximately by tier. If the Human Guard is a 4th level Soldier, and I want to still use him at Paragon Tier, I'd make him a 14th level (or so) Minion. If for some reason I'd use him at Epic Tier, I would probably make him a level 14 Swarm/Mob (meaning that the PCs actually fight 12+ guards instead of just 1). But I suppose most of the time I just wouldn't use them any more.


I remember a terrible NeverWinter Nights 1 mod. It was designed for epic levels. You entered some demiplane or alternative material plane, where you suffered some heat damage when travelling through the desert (huh - an epic level hero having problems with that), and children would be able to cast fireball spells! *shudder*

 

[Treebore]

It seems it depends on the concepts of the game being run by the DM.

If the conception is something like a Conan novel then your constrained to keep everyone weak enough for Conan to beat the crap out of them.

I for one like to go for realism in this regard. For campaigns it just improves my players ability to suspend their disbelief. It is much easier to think in terms of the real world. Yes, there are a vast majority out there that are simple farmers, tech guys, mechanics, etc... However there are also a lot of people out there gaining a lot of experience. These are what I refer to as the "movers and shakers". PC's fall into this group by default.

Greyhawk, Forgotten Realms, and most published settings all have numerous "movers and shakers". Some are even written up as NPC's in the setting books. I do not assume these NPC's are "frozen" until, or unless, they encounter the PC's. They are doing something, big or small, they are active much like the PC's.

So what is the players motivation in such a world? The same as it is in the real world. Wealth, power, morality, etc...

So just like people aspire to be the next Bill Gates, Eli Manning, Einstein, etc... the PC's aspire to be the next Elminster, Merchant King, Thieves Guild Master, Ruler of the World, etc...

How the PC relates to these others is measured by their level versus their level. Their resources versus the resources of their opponent.

There is no need to detail everyone, just having the assumption there are many adventurer types gaining XP's all the time established for your campaign is enough to make it work for when you do need to write up an NPC.

A really cool thing to do is a weekly newspaper. Go on the internet and copy and paste about a dozen news articles and then rewrite them to fit your campaign world. Insert names you create (Gygax's Extrordinary Book of Names, or any name generating website is great for this) and make sure to save these papers. Hand copies over to your players and recommend they read them. Then have PC's meet the town guard who was involved in the fight in last months bank robbery attempt, or meet someone who survived that big fire caused by the dragon attack, etc... Story hooks will explode from doing this newspaper, and having the PC's meet some of these NPC's will help with world immersion in a big way. Being able to "copy and paste" most of the story helps speed up the process. By your 3rd issue of your paper you should be zooming through it.

Adding all of these extra little touches adds depth to your campaign world but also helps reinforce that your world is dynamic and that lots of other people are doing things too, and gaining levels.

plus players get a big kick out of it when things their PC's do make the newspaper. Especially if they are head line news. Except for the Rogue, they usually are upset that their identity is so public.

 

[Pseudopsyche]

I don't know yet how I would handle such situations, but my general approach is to use "scale" monsters approximately by tier. If the Human Guard is a 4th level Soldier, and I want to still use him at Paragon Tier, I'd make him a 14th level (or so) Minion. If for some reason I'd use him at Epic Tier, I would probably make him a level 14 Swarm/Mob (meaning that the PCs actually fight 12+ guards instead of just 1). But I suppose most of the time I just wouldn't use them any more.

This approach seems to be one adopted by the adventure that inspired this thread, Sea Reavers of the Shrouded Crags. The guards and soldiers of PC races are level 13-15 minions (200-300 XP). All the enemies of PC races who are not minions are assassins, enemy agents, or even higher in rank (trying to avoid spoilers). Not all of them are named, but presumably it's not worthwhile to give every enemy a name even if they're close to a paragon-level PC in power.

Personally, I use the XP-equivalence method. The MM describes a typical human guard as a level 3 soldier (150 XP). IMC, paragon-level PCs will experience typical human guards as level 11 minions (still 150 XP). Of course, as in the Sea Reavers adventure, the guards of nobility may be tougher. I think it'll be neat for my players to see how far they've come in comparison to the typical human warrior, and I'm confident I can find other ways to challenge them. Even if I want them to fight pirates, they don't have to fight any "normal" pirates....

 

[Shades of Green]

You probably have to strike a balance between believability and heroism. On one hand, if the common types of rampaging monsters (the types attacking settlements relatively often) could easily tear through most settlement defenses, then the monsters would rule and settlements would either be ruined or enslaved - surviving in such a harsh world without protection would hurt the setting's believability. On the other hand, PC heroes need plenty opportunities to shine and do heroic deeds; if the town watch or king's men could easily deal with all major threats to civilization, heroes won't be needed - after all, if King Hrothgar's knights could slay Grendel, Beowulf would get no chance to perform his heroic deed.

So I'd probably divide guards, soldiers and so on into three main types: soldiers (or guards), shock troops and special forces.

Soldiers would be just strong enough to deal with the really common threats of the surrounding area; that depends on how common higher-level monsters are, but well-organized level 1-3 warriors with decent equipment (chainmail, shields, long swords, bows) would be sufficient to deal with kobolds and goblins, while for stronger humanoids like hobgoblins and orcs you'll probably want level 2-4 warriors or level 1-2 fighters. These forces would also have a handful of higher-level leaders and support, especially casters. Soldiers would exist in sufficient number to more or less protect the major settlements and main roads, but the frontier would get coverage at best due to their limited number.

Shock Troops would be called to deal with somewhat more significant threats, such as ogres, orc/goblinoid heroes (i.e. orcs/goblinoids with several class levels), resourceful criminals and so on. Again, their capabilities should depend on the opposition which they are expected to fight, but level 4-7 NPCs (mostly Fighters with a few casters) would probably work well. Shock Troops would come in far fewer numbers than Soldiers, and thus couldn't be everywhere at once.

Special Forces would be high-level NPC adventurers (of sorts) employed by the state for high-level missions. While very few in number they'd have very good capabilities, and could tackle some of the major threats to the realm. But they definitely can't be everywhere at once. They'll probably be level 8-11 and have good magical gear. They'll still be outclassed by really high-level PCs, but at that stage the PCs would be real superheroes - and would go against things that could eat th king's best knights for dinner.

 

[Snoweel]

No, here's the option you're overlooking: There could be more of them. Hundreds of them. In an armada of ships.

Sure.

But when you get down to it, if the pirates' levels are far enough below that of the PC's, then there may as well be thousands of them - they will not be a challenge.

When you build your encounters for your game you can do it however you want, as I stated earlier.

If you want the pirates to be a combat challenge they need to be able to hit your PCs. That requires their levels be within a certain range of the player characters (no more than 4 below according to the DMG).

Or you could decide that such pirates are no combat threat, in which case they don't need levels - and therefore don't have levels - and the battle between your PCs and the pirate armada becomes a skill challenge, or an exercise in narration.

It's really up to you. DMG chapters 4 and 5 are your friends. You can build an encounter as challenging as you need it to be.

4e is a lot more versatile than you give it credit for.

That's exactly how it worked in core OD&D/1E. Ideally you'd want a new combat mechanic that easily dealt with that scale, however. (As was provided with things like original Chainmail/ Swords & Spells/ Battlesystem.)

I get paid to play wargames. Damned if I'm going to do it in my spare time.

 

[Toras]

Honestly, I like having varying but relatively static levels for groups and types of NPC. Honestly your standard commoner is going to be a 0-2 level NPC with the appropriate skills. The retired campaigner turned Blacksmith might be a bit higher level than average and being his son might be a decent backstory for our PC.

A small village guards are probably going to be tougher than your average commoner. Say around 4-6 perhaps, depending on how regular the raids on the village by humanoids or other such occur. (Yes this means that there will be a period of your character's history where the guards will be able to kick you around)

As they get higher, they start to travel to the larger towns or the borders with hostile nations. You'll see regulars from the army who will be higher still. That will take you into the Paragon tier. There is likely to be elite troops for the kingdom that are in. By the upper end of the Paragon level, PCs are the just that, paragons of the kindgom or realm. Epic is where you start to deal with the forbidden places in the world, ancient evils, and world enders directly. You might know a handful of people like you in the world or around it.

 

[Fenes]

I prefer entertaining (which may entail challenging plots) adventures to challenging encounters.

 

[S'mon]

I get paid to play wargames. Damned if I'm going to do it in my spare time.

Well, most of us don't. And most of us have a different take on the game than you do. And we are paying attention to what you've been writing. We disagree with you. And it is a matter of us not wanting that sort of game, not a matter of us not understanding your points.