D&D 5E Kara Tur vs Tarkir vs Kamigawa vs Plane of Mountains and Seas vs Ikoria

[Aldarc]

They are free to speak up and there is nothing cringey about Kara Tur, nothing.

If there was, would you even bother listening to the people who find it cringey or would you shout them down about how Forgotten Realms can do no wrong?

 

[Ruin Explorer]

TBF, the Sword Coast alone is the size of Europe, and they are filling it in bit by bit. They aren't likely to leave the Sword Coast for a bit, certainly not as far afield as Kara-Tur, but FR is being attended to.

I mean, my position would be that the Sword Coast neither needs to be nor benefits from being "filled in", as in having more and more detail added to specific areas. That's the wrong kind of content, imo.

When I think back to 2E and so on, all the stuff we got really good use out of what not the detailed Sword Coast stuff (of which there was needless amounts), but less-detailed but extremely intriguing and atmospheric stuff all over the "upper" half of the Realms.

YMMV. But I agree with your points re: Kara-Tur specifically.

 

[Parmandur]

I mean, my position would be that the Sword Coast neither needs to be nor benefits from being "filled in", as in having more and more detail added to specific areas. That's the wrong kind of content, imo.

When I think back to 2E and so on, all the stuff we got really good use out of what not the detailed Sword Coast stuff (of which there was needless amounts), but less-detailed but extremely intriguing and atmospheric stuff all over the "upper" half of the Realms.

YMMV. But I agree with your points re: Kara-Tur specifically.

I certainly won't argue that it needs it, just that there is space for this approach.

The zoomed in area in Princes of the Apocalypse, for example, is the same square milage as the British Isles.

 

[jgsugden]

...And again there is absolutely nothing offense about Kara Tur, no one has pointed out a single racist thing to me, even oriental adventures in not an in character/in setting term. Just vague "racial insensitively" complaints back up by absolutely nothing.

Well, here is the first result of a 5 second Google Search. How Dungeons & Dragons Appropriated the Orient

Btw unless I missed something, all the people here making that complaint are white, I have never seen single Asian EVER complain about Kara Tur.

I'm sorry, can you share where the ethnicity revealer is? I'm not seeing it. Or are you making assumptions?

And the folks that created Kara Tur did so with a great love of Asian cultures and they undertook the task with compleat seriousness.

In the 1980s. When concepts of racial sensitivity were faaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaar different. For example, do you believe anyone would release a book called Oriental Adventures now? The article I mention above is a good read. I do not agree with everything in it (The comments on comeliness do not strike home for me - Ifound it to be the source of a lot more sexist and homophobic issues, but Isaw it go into wide use outside OA when it was released - YMMV), but a lot of it approaches the core problem - even with good intent and effort to try to be racially sensitive, there are few examples of cross cultural appropriation that are accepted widely - especially older attempts.

 

[gyor]

If there was, would you even bother listening to the people who find it cringey or would you shout them down about how Forgotten Realms can do no wrong?

I haven't shouted anyone down, I've only offered my opinions. In fact I literally couldn't possibly shout anyone down, I have zero control over what other people here post. None.

 

[gyor]

Well, here is the first result of a 5 second Google Search. How Dungeons & Dragons Appropriated the Orient I'm sorry, can you share where the ethnicity revealer is? I'm not seeing it. Or are you making assumptions?In the 1980s. When concepts of racial sensitivity were faaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaar different. For example, do you believe anyone would release a book called Oriental Adventures now? The article I mention above is a good read. I do not agree with everything in it (The comments on comeliness do not strike home for me - Ifound it to be the source of a lot more sexist and homophobic issues, but Isaw it go into wide use outside OA when it was released - YMMV), but a lot of it approaches the core problem - even with good intent and effort to try to be racially sensitive, there are few examples of cross cultural appropriation that are accepted widely - especially older attempts.

That was one person with extremely flawed arguements, based more on a flawed western ideology then any true example of actual racism in the book. It would takes me hours and hours to break down everything wrong with his arguements.

And the actual true source book for Kara Tur has NEVER been oriental adventures, its the Kara Tur box set and the Kara Tur monster compenedium, OA was basically a prototype.

 

[Li Shenron]

Dude, read the fricken names of the titles of the Oriental Adventure modules;

1. Swords of the Daimyo
2. Night of the Seven Swords
3. Ochimo, the Spirit Warrior
4. Blood of the Yakuza
5. Mad Monkey vs. the Dragon Claws
6. Ronin Challenge
7. Test of the Samurai

Come on. You're going to tell me that this isn't lazy? They're just recycling the most generic terms from Japanese/Chinese history and fantasy!

Like, look at a map of Kara-tur's not-Japan;

View attachment 121383

This is a joke. Telling me that these writers "did their research" when they're practically copying Japan wholesale is really rich.

The banality of Forgotten Realms continents mirroring real-world continents used to irk me a lot.

Then, I realized that it makes a lot of sense, because Ed Greenwood's original idea back when he started writing notes for his fantasy setting as a young kid was probably to imagine a world where all the legends, myths and fairy tales existed in parallel with the real world, and the "way" to that fantasy world had been... forgotten.

Therefore OF COURSE there is a Japan and a central america and an Africa in that fantasy world, and they are filled with the fantasies of real-world Japan, central America and Africa. Some things will look different, like the actual shapes of coasts, islands, mountains and countries, maybe just in the same way WE thought our shapes were different in the past (ever seen a geographic map from ancient times, how "wrong" it looks but not completely?), or maybe because the fantasy version of a region has to be somewhat different yet familiar even in geography just like the content i.e. the people, the beasts, the laws of nature etc. all are.

This "distorted mirror image of the real world" idea is nothing bad. It's simply another valid choice, mid-way between a completely original fantasy world (usually a noble design choice, but often difficult to pull if completely detached from established fantasy tropes), and having the REAL WORLD itself be the setting before adding a single supernatural twist (which is what 99% of supernatural-themed (not sci-fi) movies choose to do by the way).

 

[Mirtek]

that represent the historical cultures of areas outside of Europe.

Sounds awfully boring. And why only outside or Europe? All "european inspired" areas are nothing but hash mash of hollywood caricature of completely different times and cultures

And that's good. Because history back then was boring and mundane as life is today. I do not need a true representation of the historical culture of medieval Germany. I want my generic 0815 europeaning nation that tramples all over the differences from Portugal to Poland and cherrypicks twisted interpretations from each of before throwing it all into a blender.

Also this whole discussion is from a very us-centric point of view, where was the ### storm when they released CoS with the Vistani? Oh, I forgot. This is an issue practically unknown in the US, just good ol' european thing

 

[jgsugden]

That was one person with extremely flawed arguements, based more on a flawed western ideology then any true example of actual racism in the book. It would takes me hours and hours to break down everything wrong with his arguements.

One … of dozens and dozens of things on the google search. Come on. Don't put up paper arguments.

And the actual true source book for Kara Tur has NEVER been oriental adventures, its the Kara Tur box set and the Kara Tur monster compenedium, OA was basically a prototype.

You do understand what a prototype is, don't you?

Heck, let's go to Wikipedia to see if there is anything there connecting the dots between OA and Kara Tur... Kara-Tur - Wikipedia

Advanced Dungeons & Dragons[edit]

The fantasy setting known as Kara-Tur was described in the original 1985 Oriental Adventures book.[1] A reviewer for White Dwarf called the long background section of Kara-Tur in the book, a "bonus".[1] Kara-Tur is described in the "Province Book" from the 1986 Swords of the Daimyo module.[2]

Huh. So Kara-Tur originated in OA, and was described in modules based upon OA, but …. OA is not the actual true source of Kara-Tur.

Sounds awfully boring. And why only outside or Europe?

Because we have a plethora of European based fantasy?

... I want my generic 0815 europeaning nation that tramples all over the differences from Portugal to Poland and cherrypicks twisted interpretations from each of before throwing it all into a blender.

Great. What you want, and what offends people, may sometimes be the same thing. In this instance, a large number of people have been offended by the tendency for Western writers to comingle cultures from Eastern Europe and not appreciate what makes them cultures, amongst a plethora of other concerns.

 

[Mirtek]

Because we have a plethora of European based fantasy?

No, I mean why should only cultures outside of europe being treated that way, while the "plethora of European based fantasy" just takes all of europe, throws it into a blender and calls it a day.

In this instance, a large number of people have been offended by the tendency for Western writers to comingle cultures from Eastern Europe and not appreciate what makes them cultures, amongst a plethora of other concerns.

And again, why only "from Eastern Europe"? Western Europe has not been treated any different.