Katar?

[Baumi]

I don't see any reason to spend a feat for a katar, is there some love for it out there? I mean it's just a short sword with High-Crit, but who would use a short sword anyway?

A ranger with two weapon fighting isn't dependent on "off-hand" weapons so they wouldn't use it, other two weapon fighters can use any off-hand weapon to gain their +1 damge so there is no reason to spend a feat.

The only class that might benefit from it is the rogue, but he would still be better to spend that feat for a Rapier or simply use a dagger (+4 Attack!).

So is high-crit simply so good that it is worth it, did I miss something important or is it really just a weak (superior) weapon?

 

[generalhenry]

It's flavor mostly

 

[theNater]

High crit becomes significantly more valuable for a rogue who has decided to Raise the Stakes(16). As the only high-crit weapon that works with rogue powers, I think the katar has its place.

 

[Danceofmasks]

Rapier would do almost as much damage on a crit .. 2 higher base per [W] in the power, with an average of -3.5 damage per tier.
I'd choose to go rapier for the average +1 damage per [W] on a non-crit.

 

[theNater]

Rapier would do almost as much damage on a crit .. 2 higher base per [W] in the power, with an average of -3.5 damage per tier.
I'd choose to go rapier for the average +1 damage per [W] on a non-crit.

Well, great, now you got me curious. Okay, let's do some calculations(in the spoiler block). We'll assume nonmagical weapons(as identical enchantments contribute identically), and that our rogue hits on an 11 or better.

[sblock]
Only 20 is a critical:
Rapier: 0.45*4.5 + 0.05*8 = 2.425
Katar, Heroic: 0.45*3.5 + 0.05*9.5 = 2.050
Katar, Paragon: 0.45*3.5 + 0.05*13 = 2.225
Katar, Epic: 0.45*3.5 + 0.05*16.5 = 2.400

19-20 is a critical:
Rapier: 0.40*4.5 + 0.10*8 = 2.60
Katar, Heroic: 0.40*3.5 + 0.10*9.5 = 2.35
Katar, Paragon: 0.40*3.5 + 0.10*13 = 2.70
Katar, Epic: 0.40*3.5 + 0.10*16.5 = 3.05

17-20 is a critical:
Rapier: 0.30*4.5 + 0.20*8 = 2.95
Katar, Heroic: 0.30*3.5 + 0.20*9.5 = 2.95
Katar, Paragon: 0.30*3.5 + 0.20*13 = 3.65
Katar, Epic: 0.30*3.5 + 0.20*16.5 = 4.35[/sblock]
So the rapier is better at average damage unless you've got some sort of crit-boosting ability. However, the katar catches up quickly, and is really impressive under crit-boosting abilities in epic tier. For a rogue who specializes in crits, the katar is a really good move. For any rogue who picks up Light Blade Mastery once they hit epic tier, trading out their rapier for a katar at that point is also a good move.

Note that these calculations will change in favor of the katar if the enemy is harder to hit, and in favor of the rapier if the enemy is easier to hit.

 

[SableWyvern]

Or, for a Rogue with the feats to spare, Rapier + Katar two weapon fighting for the best of both worlds.

 

[Danceofmasks]

Umm, are you forgetting that basic attacks become 2[W] at epic, most at wills upgrade, and half the time you'd be using something better?

 

[theNater]

Umm, are you forgetting that basic attacks become 2[W] at epic, most at wills upgrade, and half the time you'd be using something better?

Blast! I did indeed forget that. Reworking the calculations(not shown here, because I didn't have a backup copy when I made my first attempt to post this) shows that the katar is very slightly behind on 2[W] and 3[W] powers if 19-20 are crits, noticeably ahead on 2[W] powers when 17-20 are crits, and tied with the rapier on 3[W] powers when 17-20 are crits.

A katar wielder will probably want a selection of powers that focuses more on causing effects than on raw damage, but is not sufficiently outclassed by the rapier wielder to make him ineffective. It's actually a serious choice whether to focus on slightly higher steady damage, or moderately higher critical damage.

 

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

A katar wielder will probably want a selection of powers that focuses more on causing effects than on raw damage, but is not sufficiently outclassed by the rapier wielder to make him ineffective.

You know, I wonder if this was intentionally designed this way, or if it just a "fluke" of the math? Because I think it fits the idea of fighting with an improved dagger...

 

[Xorn]

What about a brutish rogue multiclassing ranger? By 11 you could have your rapier main hand and your katar offhand, with Twin Strike.

Rapier + Katar + Sneak Attack seems like it could be fun. My rogue player is curious if the Katar is still considered a dagger for +1 to hit from rogues.