Keen and Vorpal

[Endur]

Disruption does not require a critical hit. Every hit forces the undead creature to make a dc 14 fort save (p.186 DMG).

But if undead aren't subject to critical hits, then how can the Disruption ability work?

The reason it works is because you can crit undead, it just doesn't gain you any extra benefit. However, in this case, the weapon has some kind of special ability that activates on a critical hit so why is disruption any different than Bursting or Vorpal (though Vorpalling an undead creature probably won't accomplish much)?

 

[kreynolds]

Re: NO Keen and Vorpal Weapons

NO Keen and Vorpal weapons.

This is incorrect. There is nothing stating that Vorpal and Keen will not both function on the same weapon.

See DMG page 187: both weapons rely upon the Keen Edge spell.

This isn't applicable to the discussion. The keen edge spell is simply a prerequisite for the crafting of the item. Vorpal in no way whatsoever duplicates the effects of keen. Similar powers generally don't stack, that's true, but these are not similar powers at all.

See PHB page 219: Keen Edge (does not stack with itself)

A keen vorpal weapon does not have keen on it twice. Only once.

See Page 180: Bless Weapon (does not stack with Keen Edge or Vorpal)

The bless weapon spell has nothing to do with keen or vorpal weapons at all. The spell description for bless weapon is merely stating that it doesn't affect a weapon with keen or vorpal on it. Bless weapon has nothing to do with this topic. The bless weapon spell also does not say anything about keen and vorpal not stacking with each other, only that bless weapon doesn't stack with either one.

Some people house rule that keen and vorpal do not stack because they feel it is too powerful of a combination, and I do agree with that assessment in regards to the Vorpal enhancement in the DMG.

 

[Endur]

Re: Re: NO Keen and Vorpal Weapons

I find your argument unconvincing.

By selecting the spell as a pre-requisite, the DMG is essentially saying that this spell must be cast on the item's materials or somehow stored by the item.

Since the Keen ability requires Keen Edge and the Vorpal ability requires Keen Edge and Death Spell, combining both abilities runs into the stacking problem (i.e. casting two Keen Edge spells on the same weapon).

This is very different from combining Keen Edge with the various Burst Weapons or Thunder weapons. The Burst weapons, even though their special ability is only activated on a critical (similar to vorpal), do not have Keen Edge as a pre-requisite.

Therefore, you can stack Keen and Icy Burst on the same weapon. But you can't stack Keen and Vorpal (overlap, but not stack).

Tom

This isn't applicable to the discussion. The keen edge spell is simply a prerequisite for the crafting of the item. Vorpal in no way whatsoever duplicates the effects of keen. Similar powers generally don't stack, that's true, but these are not similar powers at all.

 

[Endur]

To take the argument a step further, Do you think its possible to have a
+1 Frost Icy Burst weapon

or a
+1 Flaming Flaming Burst weapon

or a
+1 Shock Shocking Burst

in each case, the answer is no. The reason you can't combine Frost with Icy Burst is because they have the same pre-requisite spells.

Having both spells cast upon the weapon would result in one spell overlapping the other.

So, you could build the weapon, but it wouldn't give +2d6 cold damage. It would only give +1d6 cold damage.

Tom

 

[kreynolds]

Re: Re: Re: NO Keen and Vorpal Weapons

I find your argument unconvincing.

That may be, but it still stands on its own just fine.

By selecting the spell as a pre-requisite, the DMG is essentially saying that this spell must be cast on the item's materials or somehow stored by the item.

Since the Keen ability requires Keen Edge and the Vorpal ability requires Keen Edge and Death Spell, combining both abilities runs into the stacking problem (i.e. casting two Keen Edge spells on the same weapon).

The problem you are hung up on is your interpretation of the item prerequisites. The keen edge spell prerequisite for the vorpal enhancement means nothing except that the keen edge is spell is required to make a vorpal weapon. That's it. Nothing more. They simply are not similar effects. The effects of the keen enhancement and vorpal enhancement are completely different, and are not similar in any way, and it is the effect that is important, not the spell itself.

For example, if you have a spell called nasty blade, and it creates the exact same effect as the keen edge spell, the reason they don't stack is because the effect is the same, even though the names are different. The actual spell is not important, only the end result.

 

[kreynolds]

The reason you can't combine Frost with Icy Burst is because they have the same pre-requisite spells.

No. The reason you can't combine flaming and flaming burst is because both deal 1d6 points of fire damage on every successful hit. It has nothing to do with the prerequisite spell.

 

[dcollins]

Re: NO Keen and Vorpal Weapons

Keen and Vorpal do not stack (you get the better of the two). The exception is that there are some artifact weapons used by Gods that do allow both abilities to function.

See DMG page 187: both weapons rely upon the Keen Edge spell.

There is no rule that says weapon special abilities are dependent on the prerequisite spells for stacking determinations.

The fact that the Sword of Kas is sitting in the core rulebook with both vorpal and keen abilities, and doesn't need to say anything about unusual stacking rules, only compounds the inaccuracy of your interpretation.

You're just making a bunch of stuff up that's not in the rulebooks.

 

[Sir Hawkeye]

To take the argument a step further, Do you think its possible to have a
+1 Frost Icy Burst weapon

or a
+1 Flaming Flaming Burst weapon

or a
+1 Shock Shocking Burst

in each case, the answer is no. The reason you can't combine Frost with Icy Burst is because they have the same pre-requisite spells.

Having both spells cast upon the weapon would result in one spell overlapping the other.

So, you could build the weapon, but it wouldn't give +2d6 cold damage. It would only give +1d6 cold damage.

Tom

To be contrarian, the answer is yes in each case. To create a simple +1 Flaming weapon, one of the required spells must be cast 8 times (once per day), so the spell is already "stacking" with itself in some way. Casting is 32 times for +1 flaming flaming burst weapon seems reasonable.

An enchantment's prerequisites connect only loosely with the finished result, which typically bears little resemblance to the spells cast in creation.

Both the Invulnerability and Fortification armor abilities can have Wish as pre-reqs, but the abilities themselves function completely separately. Which one is "better" and should override the other?

At any rate, spells cast in the process of enchantment act in completely different ways than the normal versions of the spells.


EDIT:
I have to respectfully disagree with kreynolds on the stackability of flaming and flaming burst. Silly as it sounds, I would think damage would be exempt from the normal stacking rules.

 

[kreynolds]

I have to respectfully disagree with kreynolds on the stackability of flaming and flaming burst. Silly as it sounds, I would think damage would be exempt from the normal stacking rules.

Why should damage be exempt when it's a similar effect? Following your logic, the endure elements spell and the resist elements spell should stack because the end result is not 100% identical, as the two spells provide different levels of protection. However, that is not the case. Both of the spells do in fact provide similar protection, meaning their effects are similar, thus they don't stack. So, if those two spells don't stack because of their similar effects, neither would flaming and flaming burst.

 

[Kvantum]

Keen and Vorpal can IMO, be applied to the same weapon, it's just that the random weapon creation tables in the DMG prevent one from ever occuring without a specific design. (You can get a randomly rolled Keen weapon, or a randomly rolled Vorpal weapon, but not both.)