Keen and Vorpal

[Apok]

Interesting solution. In a way, I like Whodat's idea of having the weapon increase it's multiplier on a confirmed crit. This keeps the enhanement deadly in the proper hands but still reasonable. The other way I might rework it is a Fortitude save (DC = damage dealt) or be killed.

 

[Hygric]

I always thought that a weaopn or armour could only get up to +5 worth of funky stuff, as well as up to +5 enhancement, giving the max +10 cap (discounting epic armour and weapons). Have I been wrong all this time? Oh well, something else to add to my house-rule list.

 

[dcollins]

I always thought that a weaopn or armour could only get up to +5 worth of funky stuff, as well as up to +5 enhancement, giving the max +10 cap (discounting epic armour and weapons). Have I been wrong all this time? Oh well, something else to add to my house-rule list.

Indeed, the only +5 limit in the rulebooks is to the enhancement modifier itself (DMG p. 179, 183).

As an aside: Why not keep it simple, skip the house rule, and just play this one by the books? Seems to work for most DMs.

 

[Lela]

Indeed, the only +5 limit in the rulebooks is to the enhancement modifier itself (DMG p. 179, 183).

As an aside: Why not keep it simple, skip the house rule, and just play this one by the books? Seems to work for most DMs.

When they start facing foes with DR, they'll wish they had that +4 rather than the Keen and Icy Burst enchantments.

It's really a trade off. One I seem to consider heavily when creating NPCs. One I considered much more when trying to decide if my Paladin needed a +2 (and Frost) or a +1 and Holy. I took the later and, at times, regreted it. This example comes from lower levels but does tend to show up later in different forms.

Now, what I would consider house ruling is that when they cast, say, Greater Magic Weapon, it comes up against the +10 limit. Meaning, if they have Keen, Holy, Flaming, and Vorpel on their weapon (coming to +9 in extras) and have a +1 enchantment bonus, the spell will either not funtion past +1 or surpress the other effects (making them inactive), from the smallest to the largest (keen first, Vorpel last) until the spell takes up the enchantment bonus desired.

This prevents the work around some players will try to use. Besides, I don't think the spell is really stong enough to push a weapon up to an effective +14, regardless of the length of time.

Of course, I wouldn't tell my players about this one up front. After all, how often does this come up in normal lives? It's not going to be common knowledge. Remind them that you're thinking of them with enchantments that suddenly shut off.

 

[mkletch]

It's not really clear in the books, but you could allow Fortified armor to block bursts and vorpal. We asked the sage, and he confirmed (to us, not an official ruling) that burst/vorpal do function against a creature not subject to criticals, but not against fortified armor. That makes even light fort worth taking.

It really depends on your campaign, but one with lots of undead and constructs (like mine; no need to feed the dungeon beasties) is not impacted at all by vorpal or brilliant energy. Mace of Smiting on the other hand...

-Fletch!

 

[mkletch]

Now, what I would consider house ruling is that when they cast, say, Greater Magic Weapon, it comes up against the +10 limit. Meaning, if they have Keen, Holy, Flaming, and Vorpel on their weapon (coming to +9 in extras) and have a +1 enchantment bonus, the spell will either not funtion past +1 or surpress the other effects (making them inactive), from the smallest to the largest (keen first, Vorpel last) until the spell takes up the enchantment bonus desired.

We as a gaming group thought that the use of GMW you illustrate was a major cheese, and limited magic weapon and GMW to only non-magical weapons. Certainly a rule-0, but a useful and balancing one at that. Still does not shut down the cleric archer cheese, though (which thankfully nobody in our group pursued).

As for penetrating DR, unless you plan on going to +5, sure-striking is the first non-enhancement ability to go on nearly any weapon (except a bow). We've also extrapolated it into other similar abilities (e.g. unbreakable: treat as a +5 weapon for purposes of being damaged/sundered, shattering: treat as a +5 weapon for purposes of damaging/sundering magical objects, etc.).

-Fletch!

 

[Lela]

As for penetrating DR, unless you plan on going to +5, sure-striking is the first non-enhancement ability to go on nearly any weapon (except a bow). We've also extrapolated it into other similar abilities (e.g. unbreakable: treat as a +5 weapon for purposes of being damaged/sundered, shattering: treat as a +5 weapon for purposes of damaging/sundering magical objects, etc.).

-Fletch!

Hmmmmm, Unbreakable you say. . . I like it.

 

[kreynolds]

We asked the sage, and he confirmed (to us, not an official ruling) that burst/vorpal do function against a creature not subject to criticals...<snip>

I've seen a different reply...emphasis mine...

The “mace of smiting” states that it destroys a construct on a critical hit, but constructs are immune to critical hits. I presume this enchantment is meant to be an exception to the rule that constructs are immune to crits, but that raises other questions. If the mace wielder has the feat Improved Critical, does that improve the threat range to destroy a construct? What happens with other magical weapons with special effects on a critical hit? For example, does a “flaming burst longsword” burst for extra fire damage when you roll a critical vs. a creature immune to critical hits? Are critical immune creatures immune to the sonic burst from the “thundering” enchantment?

Smiting and disruption weapons use the critical rules for their special effects, even though undead and constructs are not subject to critical hits. The Improved Critical feat does not affect these weapons.

Burst weapons rely on confirmed critical hits. If the opponent is not subject to critical hits, burst weapons don't burst.

 

[Apok]

The idea that Burst Weapons don't affect creatures that are immune to critical hits is, quite frankly, ludicrious.

The whole reason why things like undead & constructs aren't subject to critical hits is because they either a) have no discernable anatomy or b) their anatomy longer functions. A critical hit is an attack that hits an opponent in a vital area which is why the extra damage is dealt. If a weapon's special ability keyes off of a strike to a vital area or an exceptionally well-placed blow (which is what a Crit is) then why would the enchantment distinguish between a strike to a normal creature and one to a creature not subject to critical hits? Unless the weapon is intelligent, it doesn't know the creature it's attacking is immune to crits or not. The effect (Bursting, Vorpal, Whatever) is going to occur regardless. Hell, even if the weapon was intelligent, I seriously doubt it would sound off in the wielder's head; "Oops! Hey, I know I'm a Flaming Burst weapon, but this dude whom you have so effectively whacked is undead and immune to crits so I can't do that cool fiery bursty thing I normally do despite the fact that you hit him in such a way that the ability would be triggered on everyone else. Sorry, better luck next battle..."

Yeah, right.

The weapon can't make that kind of distinction. All the magic knows is that the wielder landed a strike in such a manner as to activate it's Kewl Powerz. Think of it this way; you can critically hit undead, constructs, oozes, plants, etc. but they just don't take any extra physical damage. Chopping off a Golem's head looks very impressive but it just doesn't do much.

 

[Pax]

Of course, you modified Vorpal to a massive amount of damage, instead of an automatic decapitation. And kudos to you for it. Vorpal is hideously overpowered for only +5, when you start comparing it with the "epic" powers that only do a handful of dice extra for more plus-equivalents.

To the original poster; go look on the House Rules forum for additional discussion on this topic, if you're interested in cutting down the Vorpal power.

IMC, Vorpal causes all critical to do automatic maximum damage for the weapon, AND, said critical counts as a (free, without triggering AoO's) Coup-de-grace attempt.

This means most smallfry that get criticaled, only get saved n a natural 20 on the Fortitude save. And most of the big stuff -- dragons, and so on -- only FAIL on a natural 1 on that fort save.

But regardless, you at least get maximumd amage for all yoru criticals.

IMO, that's reasonably wroth a +5 enhancement.

As the DMG writes it ... ? Vorpal would have to become Epic, and be at LEAST a +8, if not +10, enhancement.