Keen and Vorpal

[Mahali]

We asked the sage, and he confirmed (to us, not an official ruling) that burst/vorpal do function against a creature not subject to criticals,

And even though it lops off a head it probably has no effect. Contructs and most undead don't care if they don't have a head. They keep on fighting.

 

[Creeperman]

IMC, Vorpal causes all critical to do automatic maximum damage for the weapon, AND, said critical counts as a (free, without triggering AoO's) Coup-de-grace attempt.

This means most smallfry that get criticaled, only get saved n a natural 20 on the Fortitude save. And most of the big stuff -- dragons, and so on -- only FAIL on a natural 1 on that fort save.

But regardless, you at least get maximumd amage for all yoru criticals.

IMO, that's reasonably wroth a +5 enhancement.

As the DMG writes it ... ? Vorpal would have to become Epic, and be at LEAST a +8, if not +10, enhancement.

I don't know, even that seems kind of high. Taking a +4 Keen Vorpal longsword wielded by a STR 22 fighter gives 8 (max. 1d8) + 2 (Specialized) + 4 (enhancement) + 6 (STR) = 20, times two for the crit, for a total of 40. That's a DC 50 Fort save, which a Great Wyrm Red Dragon fresh out of the SRD needs an 18 or better to survive.

It's certainly better than an automatic kill, but could also stand to get cut down some more, IMHO. Perhaps double normal maximum crit damage, and ditch the Coup de Grace entirely?

 

[kreynolds]

The weapon can't make that kind of distinction.

If the weapon enhancement was designed to do that, then it can indeed make that distinction. The disruption enhancement was designed to destroy undead on a crit, and undead are creatures that can't be criticaled, so the enhancement knows the difference. If you think about the other way around, then I agree it is pretty ludicrous. But when you think about it as it was designed, it's fairly simple.

 

[Dakhran the Dark]

IMC, Vorpal weapons turn threatened criticals into a confirmed critical, threatened instant kill. If the next roll is a hit, that confirms the instant kill, then operates under my alternate instant-kill rules (uses CdG Fortitude save rules, much like Sean's vorpal). No max damage, however, but I think an automatic confirmation on the crit is a valuable addition in itself...

That being said, I'm making sure that there are very few vorpal keen falchions lying around for the players to find, unless they want to be on the receiving end first...I need to rack up that TPK...

 

[Darklone]

Could someone explain to me how you achieve a instant kill at a 10+ with a 18-20 threat range weapon? Keen changes it to 15-20, Improved Critical then to 12-20.

And I think Vorpal is sick

 

[AuraSeer]

Could someone explain to me how you achieve a instant kill at a 10+ with a 18-20 threat range weapon? Keen changes it to 15-20, Improved Critical then to 12-20.

It's a prestige class ability. At a certain level of Weapon Master, you get Improved Critical for free; if you already have that feat, you get an additional +2 to your threat range (after the multiplication). So that 12-20 becomes 10-20.

I want a vorpal blade, just so I have an excuse to yell "Snicker-snack!" at the gaming table. ("One-two, one-two! And through and through!")

 

[FlimFlam]

I always wanted to make a Vorpal Sap.

I hit you for 3 subdual damage, and your head falls off. Have a nice day.

Yeah, I know it's not "legit", but man would that be funny.

 

[Apok]

If the weapon enhancement was designed to do that, then it can indeed make that distinction. The disruption enhancement was designed to destroy undead on a crit, and undead are creatures that can't be criticaled, so the enhancement knows the difference. If you think about the other way around, then I agree it is pretty ludicrous. But when you think about it as it was designed, it's fairly simple.

But if undead aren't subject to critical hits, then how can the Disruption ability work?

The reason it works is because you can crit undead, it just doesn't gain you any extra benefit. However, in this case, the weapon has some kind of special ability that activates on a critical hit so why is disruption any different than Bursting or Vorpal (though Vorpalling an undead creature probably won't accomplish much)?

Nothing, which is why Burst enchantments still work on creatures who aren't normally subject to crits.

So, a weapon can make certain distinctions based on what it's powers are (Holy weapons know when they are striking Evil, Bane weapons know when they are striking certain creatures, etc.) but the idea that creatures not subject to crits are also exempt from special weapon powers that work off crits doesn't hold water. The Disruption enchantment kinda proves it, thankyou for mentioning it k.

 

[Pax]

I don't know, even that seems kind of high. Taking a +4 Keen Vorpal longsword wielded by a STR 22 fighter gives 8 (max. 1d8) + 2 (Specialized) + 4 (enhancement) + 6 (STR) = 20, times two for the crit, for a total of 40. That's a DC 50 Fort save, which a Great Wyrm Red Dragon fresh out of the SRD needs an 18 or better to survive.

It's certainly better than an automatic kill, but could also stand to get cut down some more, IMHO. Perhaps double normal maximum crit damage, and ditch the Coup de Grace entirely?

Then again, a +4 Keen Vorpal longsword is a +10 market-price weapon, on the bleeding edge of becoming Epic. It'd cost ... gods, nealry a quarter-million gold.

Perhaps baing the CDG on maximum NONcritical damage would be better, but still, I've read a few nonEpic monsters with +40 or more Foritude saves ...

 

[Endur]

NO Keen and Vorpal Weapons

NO Keen and Vorpal weapons.

Keen and Vorpal do not stack (you get the better of the two). The exception is that there are some artifact weapons used by Gods that do allow both abilities to function.

See DMG page 187: both weapons rely upon the Keen Edge spell.

See PHB page 219: Keen Edge (does not stack with itself)
See Page 180: Bless Weapon (does not stack with Keen Edge or Vorpal)

Admittedly, this is an interpretation (I thought there was a blatant rule somewhere, but couldn't find it on first glance).

Other than the Sword of Kas (an artifact that wounded Vecna), I can think of no magic weapon in the WOTC materials or modules that has both abilities.

Tom

Looked through the threads and could not find an answer to this question.

Can weapons have both keen and vorpal placed on them? I thought you could but another in my group says you cant. Any help with this would be appreciated.