Blog (A5E) Keeping it Classy: Updated Core Classes in Level Up

[Composer99]

The name in fencing actually ... includes basically countering the enemies attack by interrupting their attacks timing. Throw in some defensive benefit for more IRL authenticity.

Okay, but I feel like at the level of abstraction that turn-based combat represents, regular attacks and your AC kind of already represent this sort of thing?

 

[Garthanos]

Okay, but I feel like at the level of abstraction that turn-based combat represents, regular attacks and your AC kind of already represent this sort of thing?

Not really (or actually can, but doesn't have to) since in this case we are very close. Fencing also has a back and forth turn order going on and you are acting out of turn this is a very good representation. It simply could also include the defensive element 5e is doing that already for instance in the BM parry.

 

[limpn]

Honestly, the arguments here are a bit missing the forest for the trees. The percentage of players NOT multi-classing is much higher than the percent of players multi-classing mage-fighter builds to take advantage of action surge.

"While not terribly problematic on a single-classed fighter, Action Surge is a nightmare for the action economy in a lot of multiclass builds. When taken outside the context of a single-classed fighter, the additional action from Action Surge can be used to lob an extra spell in a multiclass spellcaster build, get a second batch of divine smites when mixed with paladin, and so on."

Either way this is almost universally a non-issue -- but even if it were:

(1) You may use action surge to make another action, if you have already cast a spell on this turn you cannot use the action for casting a spell that requires a full action to cast.

Would solve it; but that doesn't even validate that it is a real problem.

 

[Garthanos]

Honestly, the arguments here are a bit missing the forest for the trees. The percentage of players NOT multi-classing is much higher than the percent of players multi-classing mage-fighter builds to take advantage of action surge.

I hear the reason the feature is not used (allowed to be used by DMs) is because it is problematic... so yeh "it's not used" does not seem a reason to not fix level dipping. And it isn't just this particular case.

 

[FitzTheRuke]

I hear the reason the feature is not used (allowed to be used by DMs) is because it is problematic... so yeh "it's not used" does not seem a reason to not fix level dipping. And it isn't just this particular case.

Yeah, I've never had a problem with Multiclassing... because I don't trust Multiclassing and generally do my best to convince my players not to do it. When I've allowed it, it's reluctant enough that players know to avoid cheese, or they'll never get to multiclass again. (Okay, I don't actually control what my players do all that much - because I play with people who play nice with others, so I don't need to police them like that.)

Still, your point stands, I think. Multiclassing would be encouraged more across the board if DMs felt it was "safe" to allow it.

 

[Garthanos]

Still, your point stands, I think. Multiclassing would be encouraged more across the board if DMs felt it was "safe" to allow it.

Safe isn't always about avoiding over powered either. Multi-classing to monk seemed really not valuable that time I investigated.

 

[Timespike]

Honestly, the arguments here are a bit missing the forest for the trees. The percentage of players NOT multi-classing is much higher than the percent of players multi-classing mage-fighter builds to take advantage of action surge.

"While not terribly problematic on a single-classed fighter, Action Surge is a nightmare for the action economy in a lot of multiclass builds. When taken outside the context of a single-classed fighter, the additional action from Action Surge can be used to lob an extra spell in a multiclass spellcaster build, get a second batch of divine smites when mixed with paladin, and so on."

Either way this is almost universally a non-issue -- but even if it were:

(1) You may use action surge to make another action, if you have already cast a spell on this turn you cannot use the action for casting a spell that requires a full action to cast.

Would solve it; but that doesn't even validate that it is a real problem.

Right, but fixing multiclass problems isn't the only reason to make any of the choices outlined in the article.

Getting rid of Action Surge made space for some of the other abilities the fighter has now, particularly with regard to the sheer number and variety of maneuvers they receive compared to other classes.

Changing the warlock over to a points-based spellcasting system shuts down the coffeelock, but it also gives the warlock significantly more choices about how to use their spells.

Making Divine Smite run on its own limited pool of uses means that herald can actually use their spell slots to cast spells. Adding cantrips to the herald doesn't fix any multiclass exploit at all, but it makes the herald more fun to play.

Overhaulting Wild Shape to get rid of the "sack of hit points" gives druids a lot more fun options for shapeshifting into late levels where they can assume more dangerous forms as they get more experienced. (And this was never a multiclass concern in the first place.)

 

[FitzTheRuke]

Right, but fixing multiclass problems isn't the only reason to make any of the choices outlined in the article.

Getting rid of Action Surge made space for some of the other abilities the fighter has now, particularly with regard to the sheer number and variety of maneuvers they receive compared to other classes.

Changing the warlock over to a points-based spellcasting system shuts down the coffeelock, but it also gives the warlock significantly more choices about how to use their spells.

Making Divine Smite run on its own limited pool of uses means that herald can actually use their spell slots to cast spells. Adding cantrips to the herald doesn't fix any multiclass exploit at all, but it makes the herald more fun to play.

Overhaulting Wild Shape to get rid of the "sack of hit points" gives druids a lot more fun options for shapeshifting into late levels where they can assume more dangerous forms as they get more experienced. (And this was never a multiclass concern in the first place.)

Yeah that stuff sounds pretty good!

 

[Horwath]

Yeah, I've never had a problem with Multiclassing... because I don't trust Multiclassing and generally do my best to convince my players not to do it. When I've allowed it, it's reluctant enough that players know to avoid cheese, or they'll never get to multiclass again. (Okay, I don't actually control what my players do all that much - because I play with people who play nice with others, so I don't need to police them like that.)

Still, your point stands, I think. Multiclassing would be encouraged more across the board if DMs felt it was "safe" to allow it.

problem with multiclassing is, that is bad.
Either it's some 1-3 level cheese or if you do it "proper way", the EVEN split, your character will be underpowered 99% of the time.

 

[VanguardHero]

Either it's some 1-3 level cheese or if you do it "proper way", the EVEN split, your character will be underpowered 99% of the time.

And we pay for it being an option by character abilities being delayed until several levels in to prevent more quick dips, OR they give powerful abilities within 2 levels regardless and make them OP dips depending on which side of incompetent Wizards was on that particular day. Great reason to cull what o5e Subclasses you allow in Level Up, lest Divine Soul Sorc and Peace Cleric will have new toys to attach themselves onto. 4e/PF2 Multiclassing works so much better imo.