Keeping track of player's alignment

koesherbacon

First Post
Is there any system anywhere that's figured out a good way to keep track of player's alignment?

Our party is TN or XG at the moment, but one of them (our ranger) likes to do things that are... evil... like scalping enemies and wearing their ears as trophies in order to improve intimidate. Now, I'm allowing him to do it because it fits the character concept, but I'd like to find a way to keep track of these numerically in order to tell whether he's drifting towards evil instead of TN.

Any suggestions?

Thank you!
 

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It's gross, but why is it particularly evil? Is he doing it while they're alive? Cruelty for the sake of cruelty is certainly evil, but if he's doing it after they're dead then that's not really cruel, unless you're considering it desecrating bodies. I mean it's one thing if he's killing babies or summoning demons, but you're probably going to want to provide a solid reason why scalping or ear-ing is an evil act.
 

Is there any system anywhere that's figured out a good way to keep track of player's alignment?

I do it informally. After watch a player play for a while, if they can't hold to the alignment on their sheet, I'll give them a knudge reminding them that there character is X alignment. If they still can't hold to it, I'll suggest that they consider changing their alignment to what I think they've been playing the character as. That's usually not a problem except with players playing a divine class of some sort with alignment behavior restrictions, in which case I start handling it via in game reprimands/chastisement from their patron and we have IC discussions of what it means to serve a particular deity.

Our party is TN or XG at the moment, but one of them (our ranger) likes to do things that are... evil... like scalping enemies and wearing their ears as trophies in order to improve intimidate.

You are going to need to start defining what it means to be good in your world. In my world...

a) Fundamentally I consider the act of scalping a dead enemy to be neutral. It holds no particular moral value in and of itself, though it could be a mark of some very depraved values. More on that later.
b) Scalping enemies would break the social strictures (law) of most civilized nations (at least, the ones that think of themselves as civilized). This would be considered a 'barbaric' act and would not be socially acceptable. Amongst some other cultures, taking scalps would be approvable. You could be a member of that culture and still be lawful. The lawful member of a 'civilized' culture might not approve of your particular action, but might be able to sympathize with the lawful justification you had for your action (for example, obtaining honor and chastening the foes of your community).
c) Scalping a living foe is an act of unnecessary cruelty, and so evil in my game world. Scalping a dead foe to obtain a trophy is vain-glorious, and so chaotic at a minimum and in all likelihood evil. Scalping a foe because you enjoy and relish the violence is evil. Scalping a foe to ritually humilitate a dead foe is evil. Scalping a foe to obtain power over their soul by making a fetish of the body part is evil. Scalping a foe in order to achieve honor and social acclaim is lawful, but likely lawful evil because of the societies clear glorification of violence. Scalping a foe in order to intimidate or frighten foes in order to protect yourself or larger society is dispassionate and therefore neutral (with law or chaos according to the group you are protecting), but scalping a foe in order to more greatly enjoy terrifying your foes and to make yourself fearsome in your own eyes and the eyes of your foe is chaotic evil (again, glorification of violence, this time with respect to self).
d) In all all cases, scalping a foe is morally dangerous because of the slippery slope you put yourself on by engaging in acts of prolonged and meditated violence. The ratio of necessity to violence here is really low. It's going to be hard for a person to avoid slipping into depravity and becoming totally densensitized to violence. This is a danger for any good person engaging in violence, and why most good aligned people would shun acts like scalping. If the act was socially acceptable, a good aligned member of society might not initially recognize the danger and might be more resistant to thinking about it, but the more the act sticks out as aberrant, the steeper the slope the character is on because it is unavoidably a thoughtful and conscious act.

If the character is already neutral, then I'd say this is a good indication he's slipping toward evil. I'd also, from a meta-perspective, consider an act like that a clear indication that the player was wanting to explore playing an evil character. I'd first privately talk to the player about his intentions. If the player wasn't really conscious of what was going on, or disagreed about your moral analysis, I'd make sure he understood that your world's morality wasn't necessarily a complete reflection of the real world. I'd make sure he understood that there needed to be a concrete arbitration of what was good/evil, and that it's understandable if his understanding wasn't completely congruent to the game world but the game world's internal definitions trumped anything else. I'd make sure the player understood I wasn't passing moral judgment on the player, but inform the player that he was on a slippery slope and I'd be looking for other markers of evil in his character's actions and that, if these became common or severe enough I'd have to alter his character's alignment accordingly.

It's always better though to work with the player on these things.

It's also worth noting that the action, regardless of its moral value to the character doing it, may be morally abhorrent to other members of the party.
 
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I concur with having to figure out what "Good" means in your world. A quickie way to handle it might be to lift the Humanity scale from the World of Darkness games, and pick a point on the spectrum where characters go from Good to Neutral to Evil. Maybe you could just use the Humanity system (either openly, or behind the scenes) and roll whenever the character risks their "humanity" (which gets rebranded as "goodness" in your game).

If a character is doing things that you think raises an issue, you definitely need to have a discussion before things go further, though, starting with laying out what the moral code behind alignments actually is in your game.
 

I know this is pedantic, but players don't have alignment, characters have alignment (if one of the alignment mechanics is being used). Failing to clearly distinguish this can be a problem. PCs can often perform actions or support causes their player doesn't endorse or support at all, or conversely they can be avatars to advocate their personal real-world beliefs of whatever nature.

I find the latter problematic as it means criticism and disagreements can be interpreted as personal attacks when that wasn't intended.

Out of character discussions are generally required to attempt to resolve differences in desired game direction and moral tone of the game, and it's important to be prepared to agree to disagree.

Hack and slash gaming is a common gamestyle that's more compatible with a team jersey approach to alignment than a moral code version, IMO.
 

I know this is pedantic, but players don't have alignment, characters have alignment (if one of the alignment mechanics is being used).

Though I did understand the OP to be refering to the player's character's alignment, this is a good point. Though, at the risk of derailing the thread, I'd have to say that on a purely emperical basis I'd have to disagree. It is observable that many players do seem to have an alignment, in that they are completely unable to play characters of anything but that alignment regardless of the system, rules set, setting, or what is written on the character sheet.

In my recent campaign I've had eight different players. Two were completely unable to play anything but Chaotic Evil. One is completely unable to play anything but Lawful Good, favors the alignment and can't play anything else. One plays every character from the gamist stance I call Neutral (Survivalist), and favors writing Neutral on his character sheet. Whether this reflects their actual moral views as a person is a different matter, but I have noted that people as players definately play as if they had an alignment.

I'm not sure I agree that hack and slash suits 'team jersey' approaches better than moral code approaches. I find that 'hack and slash' tends to suit just everyone writing neutral on their character sheet, as the real 'jersey' worn by the players tends to be not 'Team Evil' or 'Team Good' but 'Team Us'.
 

Why handle it through alignment? It's kind of gross, but something about D&D turns players into amateur taxidermists pretty often. He's a ranger, so at least he should know the process.

A more likely issue is that civilized areas might have laws about this, or it might cause other kinds of trouble. Or just let it go. :)

-O
 


Is there any system anywhere that's figured out a good way to keep track of player's alignment?

Our party is TN or XG at the moment, but one of them (our ranger) likes to do things that are... evil... like scalping enemies and wearing their ears as trophies in order to improve intimidate.

If the enemies are dead when he does this, how is this any more 'evil' than, say, skinning a winter wolf to make a fur coat, cutting the heart out of a dragon to use as a component or eating the meat from a giant snake?
 

If the enemies are dead when he does this, how is this any more 'evil' than, say, skinning a winter wolf to make a fur coat, cutting the heart out of a dragon to use as a component or eating the meat from a giant snake?

That's something that the individual campaign will need to address.

I can't really address the issue fully without risking violating board rules in about three different ways, but I think I can reference it by noting that in the second Narnia book Prince Caspian, the good dwarf drew a sharp distinction between eating a "bear" and eating a "talking bear" and that it would have never occurred to either the Dwarf or the children to eat a Calormen or a Telmarine. Whether or not you accept his distinction, this is an issue that has to be addressed within a games morality system. Is there a distinction, and if so what is the basis of the distinction and why. Obviously, this is an issue for which there are lots and lots of different takes in real world morality systems. There are equally many takes you can give to a fantasy world, and arguably they would be a good deal more complicated given the number of different sophont races and species in a typical fantasy world.
 

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