Keith Baker asks about walking away from Eberron.

[Jer]

I've really wanted a high fantasy old west game that wasn't alternate history.

Have you checked out Owl Hoot Trail? I like it. Fantasy, not alternate history.

Owl Hoot Trail

“You wanna shoot me, Marshal? You ain’t fast enough, and my posse has a pyromaniac gadgeteer who’s already aiming at ya. You ain’t got the grit. You

pelgranepress.com

 

[MarkB]

I love Eberron, it's my favourite D&D setting, and it certainly can't be easy for someone to walk away from it as it's creator. That said, if Keith Baker feels that he'll be better served with a new setting that he owns outright, I'll look forward to exploring it.

I suppose the next question would be whether to write this new setting with D&D 5e in mind, or go with something that won't be tied to WotC at all.

 

[Jer]

I would love to see Keith Baker do his own thing with this rather than making it a part of Eberron. I love fantasy western settings - I have since at least the Savage Coast stuff started appearing in Dragon Magazine for Mystara. I'd love to see what he does with the idea.

 

[DEFCON 1]

It depends entirely on what he feels is most important to him with regards to this project.

- If he wants to do something where he is not beholden to anyone's expectations... then a new game/setting/system would be good for him. He can do exactly what he wants, without needing to fit it in to any already-established lore, canon, mechanics, or whatever else he would otherwise have to work around.

- If he wants to do something that gets engaged by any many people as possible... then he should stick with Eberron, because like it or not D&D is and always will remain one of if not the largest pools of players. Threshold will reach more eyes through DMs Guild as an Eberron product than any other independent system he would otherwise release it through.

- If he wants to show solidarity with all the creatives outside of Wizards of the Coast who are being left out in the cold over the OGL because he IS one of those creatives... then he should absolutely leave Eberron behind and and join the crowd of independents who are going to be making things for themselves and not cater to the game of Dungeons & Dragons.

- If he wants to make any money on this product of his because he needs it to be a part of his living expenses... then he absolutely SHOULD NOT take it away from Eberron. Because like it or not... more people want to spend more money on products for Dungeons & Dragons than any other game. That's why most people who used the OGL and DMs Guild were making D&D products... because those products SELL. And if Keith needs this product to sell... then taking it away from Eberron will make him lose probably like at least half, if not even more, of the potential audience who would be interested in it.

So yeah... I don't envy him his decision.

 

[glass]

- If he wants to make any money on this product of his because he needs it to be a part of his living expenses... then he absolutely SHOULD NOT take it away from Eberron.

I am not sure even this much is true. The D&D brand does no good to him if the ability to sell under it is taken away from him tomorrow, which it very well could be.

 

[DEFCON 1]

I am not sure even this much is true. The D&D brand does not good to him if the ability to sell under it is taken away from him tomorrow, which it very well could be.

He releases his product through the DMs Guild. That would not change even with 1.0a going away.

 

[Jer]

- If he wants to make any money on this product of his because he needs it to be a part of his living expenses... then he absolutely SHOULD NOT take it away from Eberron.

I don't know that this is necessarily true. He has his own gaming company now, and much like Monte Cook did when he started his own company, it might be that Baker has enough of a following to bring people over to a new system to make a good business for himself. A core following of folks buying your stuff and evangelizing your games might be enough if it's a sufficiently large base to work from.

 

[Snarf Zagyg]

Not sure if you were referring to the specific news in this post or in general - but for people who aren't aware he did write his own game with it's own system Phoenix Dawn Command

Right here is the problem.

Eberron has a lot of fans. And a lot of people like Keith Baker.

Yet when he developed his own game, it ... well, how many people heard of it? And of those people, how many played it? Honestly, I bet that Phoenix Command (the 1986 RPG) has a much higher name recognition in the community as a whole simply because it's kind of a punchline.

What worries me about this is that we have a lot of people yelling to burn it all down. Well, cool. I think that there is this unstated belief that if we just burn it (D&D) all down, then somehow everyone will start playing all these other games. But ... where is the evidence of that?

TTRPGs has always been a discretionary hobby. Maybe people are happy with it going back to being a much smaller hobby. Maybe this 5e period will be looked back upon like the 1979-84 period. I don't know.

Who knows. Maybe there is a large market out there that just can't wait to play PF2e, and the FiTD games, and all the indie games and one pagers that our hobby has ... and they've just been waiting, pining, for the Death Star of D&D to get destroyed by the Rebellion in order to play! Or maybe not.

If I was Baker, I would release a rules-agnostic setting, or a generic (but D&D compatible) setting that he has control over. But I'm not.

 

[Ringtail]

Granted I'm not one of his patrons, but I absolutely would love to see him create something new.

 

[glass]

He releases his product through the DMs Guild. That would not change even with 1.0a going away.

Obviously; the OGL does not give access to a bunch of things he would need, and specifically prevents using trademarks (like for example "Eberron").

Nonetheless, AIUI the DMsGuild licence has always had the revocability they are trying to backdoor into the OGL. Which was not unreasonable, given that it gave access to a lot more stuff and actually was associated with WotC's brands, and given it never pretended to be open. But reasonable or not, it relies on trust in WotC not to abuse the one-sided nature of the DMsGuild licence - trust which is in short supply at the moment.

 

[Dungeonosophy]

I’d been wondering what folks like Keith Baker would say and do. Creators whose best-known works are owned by TSR/WOTC/Hasbro, and who still gain income (of some sort—DMs Guild, future novel contracts, etc.) via those IPs.

What I’d like to see Keith Baker do is:

-like he described: firmly ditch any Eberron work which directly brings even one cent of income to WOTC. But answering Eberron FAQs, etc. would be sweet.

-Go full on with your Frontiers setting.

-Strip out, salvage, and ‘convert’ all of your DMs Guild content and website lore that you can.

-For the contuinity buffs like me, throw in some deftly-worded pointers into your new setting which hint and affirm that the two worlds are related—like Gary’s conception of how Oerth and post-TSR Yarth and Aerth were a continuum of related parallel worlds. Of course do this in way that is not actually a copyright violation.

-Consider converting (or paying someones to convert) your things into multiple Open rules-sets. (A5E, PF2, etc.)

-Gather an alliance of any and all individuals who have ever done paid work for TSR/WOTC, and make a new shared Alumni Polyverse composed of all their fully owned settings. As an TSR/WOTC Alumni meta-setting which is complementary to the ORC initiative.

Just some ideas.
Thanks for your creative integrity.

 

[Sacrosanct]

Right here is the problem.

Eberron has a lot of fans. And a lot of people like Keith Baker.

Yet when he developed his own game, it ... well, how many people heard of it? And of those people, how many played it? Honestly, I bet that Phoenix Command (the 1986 RPG) has a much higher name recognition in the community as a whole simply because it's kind of a punchline.

What worries me about this is that we have a lot of people yelling to burn it all down. Well, cool. I think that there is this unstated belief that if we just burn it (D&D) all down, then somehow everyone will start playing all these other games. But ... where is the evidence of that?

TTRPGs has always been a discretionary hobby. Maybe people are happy with it going back to being a much smaller hobby. Maybe this 5e period will be looked back upon like the 1979-84 period. I don't know.

Who knows. Maybe there is a large market out there that just can't wait to play PF2e, and the FiTD games, and all the indie games and one pagers that our hobby has ... and they've just been waiting, pining, for the Death Star of D&D to get destroyed by the Rebellion in order to play! Or maybe not.

If I was Baker, I would release a rules-agnostic setting, or a generic (but D&D compatible) setting that he has control over. But I'm not.

While true, I think the timing now is right. The Hasbro debacle has created a situation where it's no better time to create your own stuff. And unlike 99% of 3PP, Keith has name recognition and a following to help as gamers are moving from D&D.*


*I'm not saying D&D is going away, or it won't survive, so calm down folks . I'm only saying now more than any other time (except maybe after 4e came out) a lot of fans are looking for something different.

 

[eyeheartawk]

-Strip out, salvage, and ‘convert’ all of your DMs Guild content and website lore that you can.

I think the terms of DMs Guild would stop you from re-purposing the DMs Guild content, right? Wasn't that one of the things that made the whole DMs Guild bargain "bad" in the first place?

 

[Dungeonosophy]

I think the terms of DMs Guild would stop you from re-purposing the DMs Guild content, right? Wasn't that one of the things that made the whole DMs Guild bargain "bad" in the first place?

Would be good to know the details of that.

 

[MGibster]

Maybe the top designers could pull an Image Comics and form their own independent publishing company where creators retain all the rights to their work?

 

[Sacrosanct]

Would be good to know the details of that.

Looks like you can scrub it, but anything you published can still be used based by WotC and other DM's Guild folks on the agreement you made when you first uploaded it.

 

[eyeheartawk]

View attachment 273849

Looks like you can scrub it, but anything you published can still be used based by WotC and other DM's Guild folks on the agreement you made when you first uploaded it.

Isn't there also a prohibition on offering anything you have for sale on DMs Guild anywhere else? Like, even if it contained no WOTC IP?

 

[Sacrosanct]

Isn't there also a prohibition on offering anything you have for sale on DMs Guild anywhere else? Like, even if it contained no WOTC IP?

I seem to recall that, perhaps in the original agreement, but I can't find it now.

 

[BrokenTwin]

It would be interesting to see what he would make after Eberron, and I hope that if he goes that route that it is successful for him. Eberron and Dark Sun were always tied for my favorite D&D settings.

 

[Haplo781]

Not sure if you were referring to the specific news in this post or in general - but for people who aren't aware he did write his own game with it's own system Phoenix Dawn Command

Haven't had a chance to play it, but I've been intrigued by the concept - PCs are people that have have died are returned to life - they can increase in power after additional deaths, but know they can only return a fixed number of times so there's tension of whether now is a time worth sacrificing. Also interesting to see as an alternative card based RPG.

I remember reading comments from Keith that part of the motivation of making Phoenix was to have a creative outlet independent of WOTC/Eberron back before DMs guild was an option. So it would be interesting to see if he goes back to do more with it again.

As for Threshold - I've been interested to see what comes of that project since I heard about it. It would actually fit nicely into my homebrew setting so if he ends up developing it more independent of Eberron it actually might be more useful to me as much as I otherwise love seeing Eberron get expanded.

Card based RPG? Why did nobody tell me?!