D&D 4E Keith Baker on 4E! (The Hellcow responds!)

[Goobermunch]

Those were the ads for the Star Wars Galaxies MMO, IIRC.



And thank god, because SW Galaxies tanked.

And it tanked largely because the design goal was to create a theme park. Ralph Koster wanted to create a world in which moisture farming was a valid player character pursuit. For some types of MMOGs, that might be a good idea. But it's very important to reference your source material.

In Star Wars, the only thing that's fun about being a moisture farmer is when the trashcan and Mr. Priss appear and start talking about the loony old hermit from across the Dune Sea. From a design standpoint, SWG focused on modeling the post-Yavin Empire from a civilian's point of view. That's all well and good, but it's not really Star Warsy. There was a dreadful lack of action, adventure, and space operatic goodness.

With that in mind, Lizard, what do you see as the source material for D&D? I'm wondering if some of our disconnect may result in you and I thinking of different things as the source material for the game.

--G

 

[Hellcow]

From a design standpoint, SWG focused on modeling the post-Yavin Empire from a civilian's point of view. That's all well and good, but it's not really Star Warsy. There was a dreadful lack of action, adventure, and space operatic goodness.

In terms of design goals, I think 4E has far more in common with KotOR than SWG. Star Wars Galaxies was essentially a world simulation that happened to be set in the Star Wars universe. We're going to let you explore the life of that janitor, just in case you've been dying to do it. In Knights of the Old Republic, the goal of the game is to put you in the role of the HERO of a Star Wars movie; you're not some janitor, you're Luke (essentially).

4E is definitely focusing on PC-as-Hero... and putting this ahead of the realistic and detailed examination of the life of the commoner.

So, given that it's going to be a niche whose needs 4E can't fully address, I'm hoping to see an all-NPC-class 3.5 Adventure Path put out over the course of the next year... "You Can Waste Time With Your Friends When Your Chores Are Done."

 

[hong]

And it tanked largely because the design goal was to create a theme park. Ralph Koster wanted to create a world in which moisture farming was a valid player character pursuit. For some types of MMOGs, that might be a good idea. But it's very important to reference your source material.

Even across the span of MMOs, the number of people who want theme park/sandbox-style play seems tiny compared to the size of the market as a whole. Ultima Online is still around, and most MMOs make some concession to those who like farming/crafting/trading stuff, but the prime focus in nearly every game is combat and plotline. People want to be the big hero, kill the foozle, and save the world, and issues like whether Joe commoner has a rich and complicated life don't appear on the radar. If the metric is market share as opposed to number of titles, the disparity in focus becomes overwhelming.

You do get games that are more focused on sandbox play in franchises like The Sims. Whether this is a more appropriate benchmark for D&D is left as an exercise for the reader.

 

[glass]

That's why there's a D&D Rules board here, and it is a viscious place.

Vicious? At ENWorld? With the best moderators on the web? Not a bit of it!

You wanna see vicious hang out in the forums at stardestroyer.net for a while. *shudders*


glass.

 

[hong]

No, he said viscous. As in, it gets bogged down now and then.

 

[Charwoman Gene]

viscious: adj. Bogged down in thickness and mean spirited. A Portmanteau of vicious and viscous.

 

[Lizard]

Those were the ads for the Star Wars Galaxies MMO, IIRC.

Nope, they were for the SW D20 RPG.

http://www.starwars.com/gaming/other/rpg/news20001028.html

 

[Lizard]

In terms of design goals, I think 4E has far more in common with KotOR than SWG. Star Wars Galaxies was essentially a world simulation that happened to be set in the Star Wars universe. We're going to let you explore the life of that janitor, just in case you've been dying to do it. In Knights of the Old Republic, the goal of the game is to put you in the role of the HERO of a Star Wars movie; you're not some janitor, you're Luke (essentially).

4E is definitely focusing on PC-as-Hero... and putting this ahead of the realistic and detailed examination of the life of the commoner.

So, given that it's going to be a niche whose needs 4E can't fully address, I'm hoping to see an all-NPC-class 3.5 Adventure Path put out over the course of the next year... "You Can Waste Time With Your Friends When Your Chores Are Done."

I enjoyed it until they added the holocrons and the entire complex economic and social community which painfully evolved in the buggy mess collapsed as everyone tried to macro their way to Jedi. I had my pistoleer/gunsmith who could do either crafting or killing as the need required, my beachhouse on Naboo, my gun business, then everything fell apart as they tried to constantly redesign the game to appeal to a player base which wasn't there, alienating those who liked it as it was and not attracting any new people to replace them.

In keeping this w/the current dicussion, the SW MMORPG didn't force you to be a janitor -- it gave you the *option* to be. You could also spend your time hunting rancors, killing tusken raiders, or burning ewok villages to the ground. The designers, to the extent possible in an MMORPG, didn't say "This is how you should play, period". They gave you an open system which let you play as anything you liked, from a dancer to a mercenary -- or both at the same time, with a classless, skill-based system. When they "fixed" the game with the "New Game Experience", removing the skill trees and freedom and creating nine "archetypes" with much more limited and focused roles, the game collapsed utterly, because they'd attracted, and kept, one kind of player, then abandoned their current base to pursue what marketing told them people wanted. If the game had rebounded with huge numbers, that would have been an interesting thing, but in fact, most of the existing players left and the servers are currently depressing ghost towns.

 

[Lizard]

With that in mind, Lizard, what do you see as the source material for D&D? I'm wondering if some of our disconnect may result in you and I thinking of different things as the source material for the game.

--G

Jack Vance, obviously. Fritz Lieber. Poul Anderson. Robert Howard. Michael Shea. Lynn Carter. Edgar Rice Burroughs. Tolkien because Gygax's friends nagged him about it. HP Lovecraft.

 

[The_Gneech]

Well, that's two of us.

Er... did you make it to DC Gameday, Gneech?

Nope, haven't been to any gaming-related get-togethers. I go to so many cons to sell my comics, I run out of time to actually attend any for fun. But I'm hoping that'll change soon.

-The Gneech