D&D 4E Keith Baker on 4E! (The Hellcow responds!)

[hong]

I enjoyed it until they added the holocrons and the entire complex economic and social community which painfully evolved in the buggy mess collapsed as everyone tried to macro their way to Jedi. I had my pistoleer/gunsmith who could do either crafting or killing as the need required, my beachhouse on Naboo, my gun business, then everything fell apart as they tried to constantly redesign the game to appeal to a player base which wasn't there, alienating those who liked it as it was and not attracting any new people to replace them.

Very clearly, those who "liked it as it was" also preferred to play heroes, else you wouldn't have had everyone gunning for Jedi.

In keeping this w/the current dicussion, the SW MMORPG didn't force you to be a janitor -- it gave you the *option* to be.

And spent who knows how many development hours and dollars in support of that.

You could also spend your time hunting rancors, killing tusken raiders, or burning ewok villages to the ground. The designers, to the extent possible in an MMORPG, didn't say "This is how you should play, period". They gave you an open system which let you play as anything you liked, from a dancer to a mercenary -- or both at the same time, with a classless, skill-based system. When they "fixed" the game with the "New Game Experience", removing the skill trees and freedom and creating nine "archetypes" with much more limited and focused roles, the game collapsed utterly, because they'd attracted, and kept, one kind of player, then abandoned their current base to pursue what marketing told them people wanted.

Precisely. If they'd designed it correctly, they wouldn't have had to change things in an effort to rescue the game.

If the game had rebounded with huge numbers, that would have been an interesting thing, but in fact, most of the existing players left and the servers are currently depressing ghost towns.

Which is why 4E is not changing directions mid-stream, and is instead going for PCs-as-heroes from the outset.

 

[hong]

Jack Vance, obviously. Fritz Lieber. Poul Anderson. Robert Howard. Michael Shea. Lynn Carter. Edgar Rice Burroughs. Tolkien because Gygax's friends nagged him about it. HP Lovecraft.

I can see it now: the mighty-thewed barbarian and the sinewy thief, climbing up the wall of the Tower of the Elephant, with the body of a guard down below and a deadly spider, poison dripping from its fangs, waiting in ambush at the top. Meanwhile, a circle is drawn around the drunk sleeping outside the tavern and a bubble asks you: what's HIS story?

 

[Lizard]

I can see it now: the mighty-thewed barbarian and the sinewy thief, climbing up the wall of the Tower of the Elephant, with the body of a guard down below and a deadly spider, poison dripping from its fangs, waiting in ambush at the top. Meanwhile, a circle is drawn around the drunk sleeping outside the tavern and a bubble asks you: what's HIS story?

He's Peter Jackson, in a cameo.

But hey, IMO, a system which lets you play either Conan OR the drunk is superior to one which only let you play one or the other...

Besides, that drunk is actually a disguised member of the thieves guild, planning to mug Conan as soon as he returns.

 

[hong]

He's Peter Jackson, in a cameo.

But hey, IMO, a system which lets you play either Conan OR the drunk is superior to one which only let you play one or the other...

You can always play a drunk if you want. Just refuse to roll the dice when it comes to non-drunkard activities.

 

[The_Gneech]

Funny. I have relatives in DC, so I actually do show up there on occasion (though I missed DDXP). So who knows? (Now one could derail things with a huge side conversation on prefer Hero system... but I'll save that until I'm actually making a trip to DC!)

Email sent to keith@bossythecow.com.

-The Gneech

 

[Lizard]

Which is why 4E is not changing directions mid-stream, and is instead going for PCs-as-heroes from the outset.

"PCs as heroes" isn't the problem; I've never been in a game of D&D, since 1978, where this wasn't so.

"PCs as precious snowflakes who are mechanically distinct from all other entities in the game world" is the problem. I didn't like it 1e/2e, I loved it when they got rid of that in 3e, and now, they're bringing it back.

I love how people twist "I want to be able to stat out everyone using the same rules" into "You just want to play a boring potato farmer!" Disingenuous much? By this logic, GURPS, Hero, WOD, and BESM are all games about playing potato farmers. Not really, no. It's an interesting sort of illogic -- because I can build a 25 point character in Champions as easily as I can a 500 point character, Champions must not support playing heroic characters from the outset. Yeah. That makes sense.

 

[hong]

"PCs as heroes" isn't the problem; I've never been in a game of D&D, since 1978, where this wasn't so.

"PCs as precious snowflakes who are mechanically distinct from all other entities in the game world" is the problem. I didn't like it 1e/2e, I loved it when they got rid of that in 3e, and now, they're bringing it back.

You say precious snowflakes like it was a negative thing. And yes, they are precious snowflakes on account of having star billing, along with Christopher Lee and David Prowse.

I love how people twist "I want to be able to stat out everyone using the same rules" into "You just want to play a boring potato farmer!" Disingenuous much? By this logic, GURPS, Hero, WOD, and BESM are all games about playing potato farmers. Not really, no. It's an interesting sort of illogic -- because I can build a 25 point character in Champions as easily as I can a 500 point character, Champions must not support playing heroic characters from the outset. Yeah. That makes sense.

Well, for someone who doesn't want to play a boring potato farmer, you sure do make a lot of noise when that option is made somewhat harder.

 

[Lizard]

Well, for someone who doesn't want to play a boring potato farmer, you sure do make a lot of noise when that option is made somewhat harder.

An "Upgrade" should not leave me with *fewer* options.

 

[hong]

An "Upgrade" should not leave me with *fewer* options.

Why should you care, if you weren't going to use those options anyway? Is this an "opinions don't count unless voiced" thing?

 

[Psion]

Nope, haven't been to any gaming-related get-togethers. I go to so many cons to sell my comics, I run out of time to actually attend any for fun. But I'm hoping that'll change soon.

You sent me an email, but it appears the account that you have attached to your enworld account is invalid.

But to restate what I answered there, I live in southern MD, about an hour south of DC. I do game near Waldorf twice a month (give or take...) and make it up for gamedays.

If you aren't already on the dcrpg yahoogroup, there are lots of area gamers there. There's also a DC area meetup group that holds a monthly RPG gala. I'm not part of that, but I can get you more info if you are interested.