Kensai's Weapon

[Hypersmurf]

I see a glaring contradiction there.

I don't agree

Your text quote about "one of the nine descriptors" specifically says "for intelligent creatures."

It does.

However, a skeleton or zombie, for example, is not an intelligent creature, but it has one of the nine descriptors of morality for intelligent creatures.

While alignment is something that applies to intelligent creatures, there are things that are not intelligent creatures that can have an alignment. Just as there are classes that are not clerics, but who cast spells from the 'Cleric list'.

-Hyp.

 

[moritheil]

However, a skeleton or zombie, for example, is not an intelligent creature, but it has one of the nine descriptors of morality for intelligent creatures.

That in no way proves that all things must have one of the nine alignments, just that unintelligent creatures can have one of the nine alignments. Furthermore, a skeleton or zombie is still a creature. An unintelligent sword is not.

 

[Hypersmurf]

Furthermore, a skeleton or zombie is still a creature.

It is exactly as much an 'intelligent creature' and an unintelligent sword is an 'intelligent creature'... which is to say, it isn't one.

A intelligent creature must have an alignment. Something which is not an intelligent creature need not have an alignment... but if it has one, there's only one list, and it's the list of nine descriptors of morality for intelligent creatures.

That's what the term 'alignment' means in D&D. If you want one, there are nine to choose from.

-Hyp.

 

[moritheil]

It is exactly as much an 'intelligent creature' and an unintelligent sword is an 'intelligent creature'... which is to say, it isn't one.

A intelligent creature must have an alignment. Something which is not an intelligent creature need not have an alignment... but if it has one, there's only one list, and it's the list of nine descriptors of morality for intelligent creatures.

That's what the term 'alignment' means in D&D. If you want one, there are nine to choose from.

-Hyp.

There's still the other angle to explore - though the weapon is treated as though aligned, is the weapon itself aligned, or is that the result of sloppy writing by writers who used the terms interchangably? I believe this was the subject of considerable discussion in the past as well. Specifically, I recall that there was a problem brought up with the assertion that a weapon bypasses DR because it has an alignment.

 

[Storyteller01]

As you may or may not know Kensai can add bonus to their weapon upto +10.

Some weapon abilities ie Holy, say that the creator must be good.

Does a Kensai's alignment prevent him from adding the special weapon ability if his alignment is different? ie Lawful Neutral

In saying that, the last paragraph of each of the weapon special abilities is clearly for
someone who want to create weapon by crafting and probably wasn't thought about when they created the Kensai class.

As a DM, should it be something you would consider using?

Cheers
Z

Not sure if not helps, but in Weapons of Legacy a pit fiend inadvertently created a holy weapon. He couldn't use it after the fact, but he did create it (sort of).

 

[Hypersmurf]

Specifically, I recall that there was a problem brought up with the assertion that a weapon bypasses DR because it has an alignment.

As far as I can tell, an intelligent weapon which is Lawful Good will bypass DR X/Good.

Is that a problem?

-Hyp.

 

[KarinsDad]

Something which is not an intelligent creature need not have an alignment... but if it has one, there's only one list, and it's the list of nine descriptors of morality for intelligent creatures.

That's what the term 'alignment' means in D&D. If you want one, there are nine to choose from.

But, this has several gaping holes in it.

For example, if you cast Align Weapon with the Good descriptor, does the weapon gain an alignment of Neutral Good? Does it gain an alignment at all?

Is gaining the Good descriptor the same as gaining an Alignment?

Similarly, ammunition fired from a projectile weapon with an alignment gains the alignment of that projectile weapon (in addition to any alignment it may already have).

What happens if you have a Holy Weapon with Unholy ammunition? Anything?

Or must the weapon and/or ammunition both be intelligent for an actual alignment to apply (if one assumes that Holy weapons are aligned, but do not have one of the 9 alignments)?

Holy is not defined as Neutral Good. It is also not defined as an alignment at all.

Holy is defined as Good, but Good is not one of the nine alignments that you stated all weapons with alignments must have in the quote above.


So, could there actually be 13 types of Alignment? The 9 main ones plus Good, Evil, Chaos, and Law?

 

[Hypersmurf]

For example, if you cast Align Weapon with the Good descriptor, does the weapon gain an alignment of Neutral Good? Does it gain an alignment at all?

I would say yes, it does; it makes the weapon Good, it makes the weapon aligned, and I've already shown why I believe a weapon that is aligned is a weapon that has an alignment.

Is gaining the Good descriptor the same as gaining an Alignment?

The spell has the Good descriptor, not the weapon.

Or must the weapon and/or ammunition both be intelligent for an actual alignment to apply (if one assumes that Holy weapons are aligned, but do not have one of the 9 alignments)?

Alignment doesn't require intelligence; compare the skeleton.

Holy is not defined as Neutral Good. It is also not defined as an alignment at all.

A Holy weapon is good-aligned. Under the premise I've given (that a weapon that is aligned is a weapon that has an alignment), it woud have an alignment that is good; that is, one of the three, LG, NG, CG. In the absence of anything making it Lawfully aligned or Chaotically aligned, it would be Neutral Good.

Holy is defined as Good, but Good is not one of the nine alignments that you stated all weapons with alignments must have in the quote above.

Indeed; rather, it is three of them.

What happens if you have a Holy Weapon with Unholy ammunition? Anything?

As I said earlier, I seemed to recall this being a sticking point last time.

If we fire a normal arrow from an intelligent, Lawful Evil bow, it is ammunition fired from a projectile weapon with an alignment. Thus, the arrow gains the Lawful Evil alignment.

If we fire a normal arrow from an Holy bow, I maintain that it is ammunition fired from a projectile weapon with an alignment. Thus, the arrow gains the alignment of the bow - Neutral Good, in the absence of any factors other than Holy influencing the bow's alignment.

If we posit the existence of an intelligent arrow (I don't believe it's legal under the intelligent items rules, but let's assume for the moment that it is), with an alignment of Lawful Good, and we fire it from an Intelligent, Chaotic Neutral bow, it seems by the wording of the passage you quoted that the arrow gains the Chaotic Neutral alignment in addition to the Lawful Good alignment it already possesses. I'm not entirely certain how this works - how one entity can possess more than one alignment.

-Hyp.

 

[KarinsDad]

A Holy weapon is good-aligned. Under the premise I've given (that a weapon that is aligned is a weapon that has an alignment), it woud have an alignment that is good; that is, one of the three, LG, NG, CG. In the absence of anything making it Lawfully aligned or Chaotically aligned, it would be Neutral Good.

This is a reasonable interpretation, however, I'm not quite sure that there is anything in the rules that explicitly points this out.

Let's call it a Theorum.

 

[Hypersmurf]

This is a reasonable interpretation, however, I'm not quite sure that there is anything in the rules that explicitly points this out.

Are there any other abilities on the tables that might fit the "an ability incompatible with an ability that you’ve already rolled" description?

-Hyp.