Kensai's Weapon

[moritheil]

Hyp - I have freely admitted at all points throughout this discourse that I do not recall the development of arguments with clarity, though I do remember the outcome. That said, I believe this will help.

The argument that holy unholy weapons are impossible hinges upon the assertion that all aligned weapons must be one of the nine alignments - and the implicit assumption that all weapons that bypass align-based DR are aligned. However, the statements cannot both be true. (This can be easily shown, and is the counterexample to the assertion that all weapons bypass alignment-based DR because they are aligned, and that the two statements are equivalent.)

The nine alignments argument, while initially appearing reasonable, is ultimately not airtight.

A good example is to consider a solar - a solar can pick up a sword and bypass DR/good with it, even if the sword has no alignment. If the sword did have to become suddenly aligned, and only the nine alignments were possible, that would imply that the solar could not pick up an evil-aligned weapon and still bypass DR/good with it. And we know that the solar can bypass DR/good with any manufactured weapon it wields, which of course could include an evil-aligned sword if no other were available. The argument can of course be made in reverse with a pit fiend.

Another example might be the case you mentioned - a holy bow with unholy ammunition bypasses DR/good and DR/evil. By your own admission, it's impossible to have a good evil alignment, as it is not one of the nine alignments.

The solution to this conundrum is to admit that either things need not be aligned to bypass alignment, or aligned weapons need not have one of the nine standard alignments. Last time, for whatever reason, the conclusion reached was the latter.

 

[Hypersmurf]

A good example is to consider a solar - a solar can pick up a sword and bypass DR/good with it, even if the sword has no alignment. If the sword did have to become suddenly aligned, and only the nine alignments were possible, that would imply that the solar could not pick up an evil-aligned weapon and still bypass DR/good with it.

A solar's sword doesn't become aligned; it is treated as if it were good-aligned for the purpose of bypassing damage reduction, but not for any other purpose.

It's like how a monk's unarmed strike being treated as a natural weapon for purposes of spells or effects that improve or enhance natural weapons does not actually make it a natural weapon.

The solar's sword can have no alignment, or even an evil alignment, but for the purpose of bypassing DR X/Good, it is treated as if it had a good alignment. In this way, the sword would be a little bit like an evil creature with the [Good] subtype; he has an evil alignment, but reacts to certain effects etc as though he were a creature with a good alignment.

By your own admission, it's impossible to have a good evil alignment, as it is not one of the nine alignments.

By the magical ammunition wording, it doesn't have a good evil alignment; it has two alignments.

I would be far more comfortable if the wording were similar to creatures like the Solar, where the ammunition is treated as having the weapon's alignment for the purpose of bypassing DR X/Alignment. Possessing two alignments doesn't make sense.

-Hyp.

 

[glass]

I actually remember this discussion quite well, though you took a slightly different approach to explaining the issue then. Do you still hold that all weapons must have one of what you referred to then as "the nine alignments?"

I did a quick search and turned up this:

http://www.enworld.org/showthread.php?t=158989&highlight=holy+unholy+weapons

Is that the thread you are refering to?


glass.

 

[zlorf]

Are there any other abilities on the tables that might fit the "an ability incompatible with an ability that you’ve already rolled" description?

-Hyp.

Talk about high jacketed

Interesting discussion though

A simple one line descriptor within the Kensai class saying something like:
" A Kensai's alignment has no relation to the weapon he creates"

Would have been simple, but i feel the designers of the class either didnt think this was a issue or didnt consider it. I think it would have been an appropriate use of alignment for the Kensai class. Do i play Lawful good and then have more option for my weapon but may suffer when fighting evil because of spells and effect that are more likely to effect good aligned character or play Lawful Neutral and avoid some of the penalties in which good character seem to suffer when battling the forces of evil.

Cheers
Z

 

[moritheil]

Possessing two alignments doesn't make sense.

-Hyp.

I suspect that this is the fundamental source of our disagreement. The way I adjucate DnD, just because something doesn't make sense doesn't mean it can't be true. I am seeing from recent discussions with KD that many board posters fundamentally want DnD to make sense, but, well . . . some things in real life don't make sense intuitively (Quantum Mechanics) and yet are true. I'm willing to give a fantasy realm the benefit of the doubt.

Glass - Thanks for trying, but that isn't the right thread. The one I am thinking of went on for more than a page, and I at some point took part in the discussion.