D&D General Keys from the Golden Vault look through.

[Maxperson]

So to no one in particular. Here is what WotC has said about Lawful Good.

5e: "Lawful good (LG) creatures can be counted on to do the right thing as expected by society."

So not a lot, but nothing there about having to respect or follow laws.

4e: "you’re lawful good, you respect the authority of personal codes of conduct, laws, and leaders, and you believe that those codes are the best way of achieving your ideals. Just authority promotes the well-being of its subjects and prevents them from harming one another. Lawful good characters believe just as strongly as good ones do in the value of life, and they put even more emphasis on the need for the powerful
to protect the weak and lift up the downtrodden. The exemplars of the lawful good alignment are shining champions of what’s right, honorable, and true, risking or even sacrificing their lives to stop the spread of evil in the world.

You are not only capable of challenging such injustice, but morally bound to do so. However, you would prefer to work within the system to right such problems rather than resorting to more rebellious and lawless methods."

Quite a bit more, along with a preference(not requirement) to work within the system rather than using lawless methods. So LG can use lawless methods when necessary.

3e: "Lawful Good, “Crusader”: A lawful good character acts as a good person is expected or required to act. She combines a commitment
to oppose evil with the discipline to fight relentlessly. She tells the truth, keeps her word, helps those in need, and speaks out against injustice. A lawful good character hates to see the guilty go unpunished."

Nothing at all there about laws at all. Let's look at lawful.

"Lawful characters tell the truth, keep their word, respect authority, honor tradition, and judge those who fall short of their duties."

Still nothing.

Let's look at lawful neutral since that's all about lawful.

"Lawful Neutral, “Judge”: A lawful neutral character acts as law, tradition, or a personal code directs her. Order and organization are paramount to her. She may believe in personal order and live by a code or standard, or she may believe in order for all and favor a strong, organized government."

Here we go! There are lots of different ways to be lawful and the good axis doesn't concern itself with laws. So LG can involve personal codes, traditions OR laws, but following laws is not required to be lawful.

 

[Maxperson]

In my game, I have alignment but it's just a very vague frame of reference and it barely has any weight.

In my game the main weight alignment has is on the DM side of things. I don't have the time or desire to figure out complex personalities or even a few quirks for the vast majority of NPCs(which includes monsters) that the party will encounter. If they go to the baker or face off against a hill giant, alignment is a very quick shorthand way for me to decide how I will be roleplaying that NPC. For important NPCs I will create more complex personalities, and for middling NPCs I will assign alignment and some personality quirks.

On the player side of things I couldn't care less what they do with alignment. They can write down LG, CG, BBEG or even nothing at all. They decide how to roleplay their characters and the world reacts to what they say and do.

I was incorrect on the RAW interpretation (I forgot that was changed) which in itself was always jumping off an earlier note about the Golden Vault's alignment

On this nothing changed. Even as far back as 1e the rules allowed for individuals or small groups of creatures that were of an alignment other than what was listed for them in the books if the DM so desired. You could have a NG or LE gold dragon if you wanted.

 

[Zaukrie]

Overall, on topic, which, ugh.....

I think this is a very well written book. It isn't perfect, but I'm glad I own it. I'm much more likely to use most of it than most books I buy. I'm willing to answer specific questions (on the tiny chance anyone interested in the book hasn't given up after the last five pages of the same arguments we get from the same people every thread).

 

[Whizbang Dustyboots]

Guys, I have opted out of this thread after explaining my point of view and wishing you guys who like the book the best.

Please stop inventing strawmen about my opinions and then mocking me for those strawmen. You are allowed to find this book works for you and I am allowed to feel it doesn't meet what I would have wanted for it.

Talk about the book instead of people who are not interested in further derailing this thread.

 

[RoughCoronet0]

Overall, on topic, which, ugh.....

I think this is a very well written book. It isn't perfect, but I'm glad I own it. I'm much more likely to use most of it than most books I buy. I'm willing to answer specific questions (on the tiny chance anyone interested in the book hasn't given up after the last five pages of the same arguments we get from the same people every thread).

Any new equipment or magical items?

 

[Umbran]

Why on this good green Earth are you arguing about alignment in a thread about an adventure for a game that has largely eliminated the relevance of alignment?

 

[Reynard]

Why on this good green Earth are you arguing about alignment in a thread about an adventure for a game that has largely eliminated the relevance of alignment?

We even have a dedicated thread for it!

 

[Zaukrie]

Why on this good green Earth are you arguing about alignment in a thread about an adventure for a game that has largely eliminated the relevance of alignment?

It's the same people, every thread, over and over....

 

[Sabathius42]

It's how you get your assignment. Nothing more or less here. I'm not sure all tables need / want more information.

I'm gonna side with the idea that if you named the book itself after the organization that distributes assignments in the fiction then there should be a bit more info than a single paragraph about them.

 

[Zaukrie]

Any new equipment or magical items?

Not much....a few of the MacGuffins are items, but they aren't really useful (in a normal sense). There is a weird potion and quite a few standard items.

 

[FitzTheRuke]

Why on this good green Earth are you arguing about alignment in a thread about an adventure for a game that has largely eliminated the relevance of alignment?

I haven't been involved in any argument about alignment myself, but in defense of those that have (on both sides), I think its origins lie in the natural surprise (whether we like this aspect of the adventure book or not, I think it's a bit of a surprise) that a book about heists took the time to create a way to make sure that the participating PCs are not only allowed, but encouraged, to be good.

The purest, "by-the-book" following of the adventure keeps the characters in a very heroic light. I don't think that is all that surprising in itself (for one, it staves off any of the old "D&D's corruptive influences" arguments) but I think it still came as a bit of a shock that the reasons for ALL the heists in the books start from a heroic position.

Obviously (to me, at least), it would be easy enough to play it grayer. Honestly, it's probably harder to add goodness in than it is to take it out, so I understand why they may have chosen to write it this way.

 

[Clint_L]

GG review:

 

[Paul Farquhar]

I think it's a bit of a surprise

Given that it's clearly strongly influenced by Mission Impossible, I don't think it's remotely surprising.

But that is a good example of the difference between fantasy morality and real world morality. The TV show was good fun, with it's clear good guys and bad guys, but in the real world, the IMF is a terrifying concept. The government enlisting civilian volunteers to carry out Black Ops, and "if any of your IM force are captured or killed, the secretary will disavow any knowledge of your..." highly illegal and morally dubious activities.

 

[FitzTheRuke]

Given that it's clearly strongly influenced by Mission Impossible, I don't think it's remotely surprising.

But that is a good example of the difference between fantasy morality and real world morality. The TV show was good fun, with it's clear good guys and bad guys, but in the real world, the IMF is a terrifying concept. The government enlisting civilian volunteers to carry out Black Ops, and "if any of your IM force are captured or killed, the secretary will disavow any knowledge of your..." highly illegal and morally dubious activities.

Sure, but I think a LOT of people probably hear about a "D&D adventure about heists" and expect their characters to at least be "criminal with a heart of gold" and not outright "heroic" as the adventure presents it. (Obviously, the former is still plenty encouraged, as always).

I forget now, but I believe I was speaking earlier as to why alignment might be an understandable discussion when talking about this book.

 

[Whizbang Dustyboots]

The TV show was good fun, with it's clear good guys and bad guys, but in the real world, the IMF is a terrifying concept. The government enlisting civilian volunteers to carry out Black Ops, and "if any of your IM force are captured or killed, the secretary will disavow any knowledge of your..." highly illegal and morally dubious activities.

Prepare to be terrified. (The subsequent book was even moreso.)

 

[Zaukrie]

Sure, but I think a LOT of people probably hear about a "D&D adventure about heists" and expect their characters to at least be "criminal with a heart of gold" and not outright "heroic" as the adventure presents it. (Obviously, the former is still plenty encouraged, as always).

I forget now, but I believe I was speaking earlier as to why alignment might be an understandable discussion when talking about this book.

See, this is why I don't make assumptions about how others play, because I'd never assume that.

 

[FitzTheRuke]

See, this is why I don't make assumptions about how others play, because I'd never assume that.

It has nothing whatsoever to do with how others play, it has to do with the heist genre.

 

[dave2008]

Overall, on topic, which, ugh.....

I think this is a very well written book. It isn't perfect, but I'm glad I own it. I'm much more likely to use most of it than most books I buy. I'm willing to answer specific questions (on the tiny chance anyone interested in the book hasn't given up after the last five pages of the same arguments we get from the same people every thread).

What, if any, other special rules or mechanics are in the book beside the "Suspicion" mechanic in Prisoner 13?

 

[dave2008]

That video review was very interesting. Some of the heists seem quite interesting. They could be easy to drop into another campaign.

 

[dave2008]

What, if any, other special rules or mechanics are in the book beside the "Suspicion" mechanic in Prisoner 13?

@MonsterEnvy and @Zaukrie , bump my own question because no one has answered it yet: any new mechanics?