D&D 4E Kill Mongo! 4E min/max design challenge.

[Amakar]

Death to Mongo in 8 Rounds!

In the true spirit of Min-Maxing, I had to use unconventional options. Off to the MM!

Mongo dies in 8 rounds to the horror of : Grunk, the Bugbear Brawny Rogue.

Bugbear Rogue:

Build: Str: 16, Dex: 20, Con: 11, Int: 10, Wis: 10, Cha: 8

Class: Rogue
Option: Brawny
At will Power: Piercing Strike
Encounter: Torturous Strike
Feat: Warrior of the Wild (Ranger Multiclass for hunter's Quarry)

Racial Features ( +2str, +2 dex included),
Racial Encounter: Predatory Eye: Add +1d6 extra damage when you have CA)
Racial Feature: Oversized: You may use weapons 1 size large than yourself.

Weapon: Large Shortsword: 1d8 but still a light blade.

Strategy: Save the encounters for when he's flanking. Otherwise use Piercing Strike

Attack Options:

Torturous Strike( vs flanked)
+10 vs AC Damage 2d8 + 8 +2d6 +3 +1d6
Roll
1-6 Miss
7-19: 30.5 av damage
20 = 45 damage

Round Average : 22.45


Piercing Strike (Not flanked):
+8 vs Ref 1d8+5 +1d6
Rolls
1 to 6: Miss
7-19: 13damage
20: 19 damage

Round Average: 9.4

Piercing Strike w/ Predatory Eye (vs flanked)

+10 vs Ref 1d8+5 +2d6 + 3 + 1d6 + 1d6
Roll
1 to 3: miss
3 to 19: 26.5 damage
20: 40 Damage

Round Average: 23.2

Piercing Strike ( with flank)

+10 vs Ref 1d8+5 +2d6+3 + 1d6
1 to 3 miss
3 to 19: 23 damage
20: 34 damage

Round Average 20.1

Mongo Starts Flanked:
Round 1: Tort. Strike* 22.45 dmg; 22.45 ttl
Round 2: Pier. Strike 9.4 dmg; 31.85 ttl
Round 3: Pier Strike** 23.3 dmg; 55.15 ttl
Round 4: Pier Strike 9.4 dmg; 64.55 ttl
Round 5: Pier Strike 20.1 dmg; 84.65 ttl
Round 6: Pier Strike 9.4 dmg; 94.05 ttl
Round 7: Pier Strike 20.1 dmg;114.15 ttl
Round 8: Pier Strike 9.4 dmg; 123.55 ttl DEAD MONGO
Round 9: Pier Strike 20.1 dmg; 143.65 ttl
Round 10ier Strike 9.4 dmg; 153.05 ttl

*using hunter's quarry
** Using Predatory Eye

153.05 Average damage

If Mongo is unflanked on round one (flank in even round) and Grunk has combat advantage:

Round 1: Tort. Strike* 22.45 dmg; 22.45 ttl
Round 2: Pier Strike** 23.3 dmg; 45.75 ttl
Round 3: Pier Strike 9.4 dmg; 55.15 ttl
Round 4: Pier Strike 20.1 dmg; 75.25 ttl
Round 5: Pier Strike 9.4 dmg; 84.65 ttl
Round 6: Pier Strike 20.1 dmg;104.75 ttl
Round 7: Pier Strike 9.4 dmg; 114.15 ttl
Round 8: Pier Strike 20.1 dmg; 134.25 ttl DEAD MONGO
Round 9ier Strike 9.4 dmg; 143.65 ttl
Round 10: Pier. Strike 20.1 dmg; 163.75 ttl

163.75 Total


There you go: Mutilated Mongo with time to take out a few minions. Can anyone beat my time?


You also may want to try the Drow: +2 Dex, +2 Cha and they have a minor that can daze for more Combat adavantage

 

[Thikket]

Incorporating the effects of flanking into the Tiefling, the average damage over the 10 rounds is only 136.475, far less than the bugbear's -- but it does kill in 9 rounds instead of all 10.

 

[t3nk3n]

Bugbear Fighter
20 Strength
Warrior of the Wild
Large Maul

Reaping Strike, +8 vs. AC, 2d8+1d6+5
Miss on a 1-8 (5 damage * .35 = 1.75)
Hit on a 9-19 (17.5 damage * .6 = 10.5)
Crit on a 20 (27 damage * .05 = 1.35)
Total expected damage per round = 13.6
Five rounds = 68

Reaping Strike w/Flank, +10 vs. AC, 2d8+1d6+5
Miss on a 1-6 (5 damage * .25 = 1.25)
Hit on a 7-19 (17.5 damage * .7 = 12.25)
Crit on a 20 (27 damage * .05 = 1.35)
Total expected damage per round = 14.85
Four rounds = 59.4

Steel Serpent Strike + Predatory Eye w/Flank +10 vs. AC, 4d8+2d6+5
Miss on a 1-6 (0 damage * .25 = 0)
Hit on a 7-19 (30 damage * .7 = 21)
Crit on a 20 (49 damage * .05 = 2.45)
Total expected damage per round = 23.45

Round 1: 13.6
Round 2: 23.45; 37.05
Round 3: 13.6; 50.65
Round 4: 14.85; 65.5
Round 5: 13.6; 80.35
Round 6: 14.85; 95.2
Round 7: 13.6; 108.8
Round 8: 14.85; 123.65 - Dead Mongo!
Round 9: 13.6; 137.25
Round 10: 14.85; 152.1

Still 8 rounds, and less overall damage than the rogue, but, this is from a defender!

I think the overall theme here is that bugbears are a wee bit overpowered.

 

[robgmsft]

Talisker Mark II

OK, with Phil500's suggestion and Zaru's bug-fix, here's Talisker Mk II, ringing in at a very respectable 136 and change for a PHB-only striker:

Talisker Mk II, Eladrin Brawny Rogue: (STR14, DEX20), Short Sword, Warrior of the Wild, Piercing Strike, Torturous Strike.

Piercing Strike with Quarry
+8 vs Reflex, 2d6+5 damage
Miss on a 1-5 (0 damage * .25 = 0)
Hit on a 6-19 (12 damage * .7 = 8.4)
Crit on a 20 (14.5 damage * .05 = .725)
Total expected damage per round = 9.125

Piercing Strike with Sneak Attack, Quarry, and flank
+10 vs Reflex, 4d6+7 damage
Miss on a 1-3 (0 damage * .15 = 0)
Hit on a 4-19 (21 damage * .80 = 16.8)
Crit on a 20 (24.5 damage * .05 = 1.225)
Total expected damage per round = 18.025

Tortuous Strike with quarry
+8 vs. AC 3d6+6
Miss on a 1-8 (0 damage * .4 = 0)
Hit on a 9-19 (16.5 damage * .55 = 9.075)
Crit on a 20 (21.5 damage * .05 = 1.075)
Total expected damage per round = 10.15

1 round tortuous strike (10.15) + 4 rounds piercing strike (36.5) + 5 rounds piercing strike w/sneak attack and flank (90.125) = 136.775

Now the intersting thing is, even as a min-maxer at heart, I question whether this is the right build - I'm losing 3 pluses to gain 1 on dex, which narrows my options and effectiveness in skill encounters and for a variety of rogue powers...

I have to tip my hat to the designers, it's very ahrd to find a broken damaging build in 4E. Guess I'll have to wait until the splat books come out.

 

[Amakar]

Adjusting and Warriror of the Wild

It seems that the Bugbear's pretty powerful, bigger weapons, bonuses to useful stats for rogues, and a free sneak attack.

As for the bugbear fighter build, that could also be done with a minotaur.

But look at all the builds.. the culprit is... Warrior of the Wild. It's an extra 1d6 vs solos, which sort of bends these builds when you put them vs multiple monsters.


And another Boring, but faster than 10 kill. Though this one doesn't require being near the target at all. And in true Mix max style, it requires doing illogical things for bonuses.

Darkmaw, masochistic gnoll ranger (archer)
Race +2 Dex, +2 con
Stats 20 dex, 14 wis are all that matter.
Feat: WF bows
Racial Ability +2 damage while bloodied

Special: Darkmaw self-mutiliates himself to bloodied condition before every battle.

He doesn't get flanking so the math is easier

always +8 to hit (+5, +2 prof, +1 prime shot)

2 hits per round:
Miss 1-8 = 0
Hit 9-19 = 8.5
Crit 20 = 13

Average per attack = 5.32

Hunter quarry: 1/round when it hits Change of hitting: 79%
3.5 *.79 = 2.77

2 attacks + quarry
13.41 per round.

Using his encounter power deals 20.85 on the first round.


Round 1: Encounter
Round 2-9: Twin Shot

141.81
Dead by round 9, from 20 squares away.

Can anyone else abuse the gnoll bloodied damage (or dragonborn bloodied to hit?)

 

[Thikket]

Here's a note from a developer on Warrior of the Wild, as WOLead mentioned in this thread. Apparently this feat is slotted for errata, so that it can be only used for 1 round.

http://www.enworld.org/showpost.php?p=4251788&postcount=81

I agree that for 4e, the feat is overpowered, because it is a "I must take this if I'm not planning on multiclassing in another way" feat. It even scales with level, though not smoothly. Everyone benefits enormously from this feat. We've seen that in this little contest.

 

[Amakar]

Well, for solo hunting it is tops. +3.5 av damage. Beats the weapon training feats.

But, yeah so that ranger multiclass is too much for solos.

So new challenge: Kill Mongo without Warrior of the Wild?
(Bloodied gnoll still works)

 

[t3nk3n]

Power Attack for the bugbear fighter instead of warrior of the wild works as well:

Bugbear Fighter
20 Strength
Power Attack
Large Maul

Reaping Strike, +6 vs. AC, 2d8+8
Miss on a 1-10 (5 damage * .5 = 2.5)
Hit on a 11-19 (17 damage * .45 = 7.65)
Crit on a 20 (24 damage * .05 = 1.2)
Total expected damage per round = 11.35
Five rounds = 56.75

Reaping Strike w/Flank, +8 vs. AC, 2d8+8
Miss on a 1-8 (5 damage * .4 = 2)
Hit on a 9-19 (17 damage * .55 = 9.35)
Crit on a 20 (24 damage * .05 = 1.2)
Total expected damage per round = 12.55
Four rounds = 50.2

Steel Serpent Strike + Predatory Eye w/Flank +8 vs. AC, 4d8+1d6+8
Miss on a 1-8 (0 damage * .4 = 0)
Hit on a 9-19 (29.5 damage * .55 = 16.225)
Crit on a 20 (46 damage * .05 = 2.3)
Total expected damage per round = 28.525

Round 1: 11.35
Round 2: 12.55; 23.9
Round 3: 11.35; 35.25
Round 4: 28.525; 63.775
Round 5: 11.35; 75.125
Round 6: 12.55; 87.675
Round 7: 11.35; 99.025
Round 8: 12.55; 111.575
Round 9: 11.35; 122.925 - Dead Mongo!
Round 10: 12.55: 135.475

One round slower and a lot less damage overall, but no hunter's quarry

 

[robgmsft]

A little analysis...

OK, just spent the morning playing with spreadsheets (yes, I'm a giant dork, thank you) and looking at expected per round damage for a rogue who fights 10 rounds with 5 flanking.

I ignored per encounter abilities (although as you get more of them they become more relevant) and focused on Piercing Strike and Sly Flourish builds. Piercing strike tends to work better until the AC is only 1 greater than the reflex. Many monsters have +3 to +5 AC over reflex, so PS seems to be the clear winner here.

20 dex vs 18 dex was no contest - by far the biggest win of any decision.

If you assume Eladrin teleport will add one extra flanking round then you get an extra .68 average damage per round.

Elf reroll, on the other hand, only added .20 dpr and nimble layered on top of that gives you merely .22. Reroll is much better used for daily's, but for this exercise it's clearly the loser to teleport.

The dagger's extra to-hit doesn't make up for the loss in damage over the shotsword.

OK, so we've got an Eladrin Rogue using a shortsword with 20 Dex, here are the calculated deltas for each relevent damaging feat or choice:

Backstabber: +1.02
Use a Rapier: +.86
Two weapon fighting: +.81
Weapon Focus: +.81
Nimble: +.46
Press Advantage: +.34 (1 extra sneak attack 50% of the time)
Charging on your first round with power charge: +.18
Use a Katar: +.17
Power Attack: +.15
Improved initiative: +.14 (1 extra Sneak Attack 20% of the time)
Charging on your first combat round: +.13
Quickdraw: +.07 (1 extra Sneak Attack 10% of the time)
Use a Dagger: -.28

(note: I also posted this as a new thread, just for fun.)

I guess the most interesting take-away for me from this is that things the rogue and his team-mates do to allow for flanking are generally as or more important than these build decisions. I think I'll take Rapier/Backstabber/TWF/Focus and then get jack of all trades to make up for my gimped skills.

 

[Amakar]

Nicely done.

What's the math on changing the to hit ratio.

And what numerical effect does going bugbear for the bigger weapon/higher str have?