Killing as fun and games: a question for the Good Guys

[Edena_of_Neith]

Roleplaying "death" usually takes places in settings which mirror certain time periods in the history of the real world in which death was very much an everyday event, whether by disease, war, or punishment. The people then didn't particularly see death as "fun and games", but perhaps were more innured to it than most modern Western societies. Think of public executions, attended by hundreds or thousands of people. In the roleplaying game, characters live in a world similarly balanced where death is not a desirable feature but is perhaps a more everyday event than in our real societies. And characters who are adventurers are not pursuing a sport, as you seem to imply, but embark on adventure with the expectation of rewards which may have to be gleaned by overcoming foes. Usually the good aligned characters advance the cause of good -- building civilisation, spreading the worship of good aligned deities, defeating monsters -- by removing evil creatures and enemies along the way. This tends to involve killing them, which in the game context is a necessary "evil" in the cause of good.

Can you take this philosophy, and apply it to Medegia?
If yes, how would you do it?

 

[Edena_of_Neith]

Most heroes in adventure fiction, for example James Bond, the Three Musketeers or anyone played by Erol Flynn, don't seem to take killing too seriously. And yet they are not evil. Maybe from a modern, angsty psychoanalytical perspective they are all sociopaths, but in their own universes they are the good guys.

Very interesting premise. Could you expand on this?
Shall we drop alignment, then?
And if we do, aren't the people of Medegia still just your ordinary human beings? How to make them into James Bonds, Musketeers, or Robin Hoods?
And if they become killers in this sense, how to keep them human, and not turn them into monsters?

 

[Sound of Azure]

Yes. Obviously.
Now, let's find a different answer.

Hehe, sorry about that. It's late, and my heater isn't working.

Now, I don't know a whole lot about Greyhawk or its canon, but from the information you've provided (and it's rather interesting, if I might say so), conventional warfare doesn't look like it would work.

An alliance between Medegia and Ossom's armies was not strong enough (apparently). What weapons could a nation bring to bear against a largely evil army with the strength and aid of demons, as well as additional amounts of evil humans/humanoids?

What weapons are available in fighting against evil?

1) Sounds like you need a lot of good aligned Clerics and affiliated Paladins. Druids, too if you can manage it. But the first two are vital, I would think. With such divine aid, Celestial may be called to aid Midegia if at least some of the clergy are high enough level. Faith could be a way to forge ties with neighboring/nearby nations that follow the same faith.

2) Turning evil agianst itself. Can Medegia use some of its wealth (or generate more wealth) in order to "buy off" some of the evil army?

3) Make itself too valuable to attack. I don't know how (not really knowing anything about the place), but does Medegia have some kind of resource that Ivid might want? Can they destroy it if he decides to attack? Perhaps the people of Medegia could create such a resource?

4) Why can there be no outside aid? 100 years is a long time to forge alliances, and Midegia is clearly in need of allies.

 

[Edena_of_Neith]

I don't know what kinds of D&D you play, but in most D&D games I've been in, PC's don't actively seek out sentient beings to slay with wild abandon. PC's are usually forced to kill in defense of themelves or for the greater good (i.e. stopping an evil ritual or army from claiming innocent lives). Which is more evil: killing the marauding red dragon or standing by idly while it razes villages? In many campaigns their are many ways to get exp besides killing. Subduing enemies or talking/sneaking your way out of potentially dangerous situations are all viable means of ending encounters. Overcoming challenges is what gets you exp, not mindlessly slaying things. This may not be true in campaigns of evil-aligned PC's, but that is a different story.

Correct. Most PCs aren't like that. Those that are, must be DMed carefully (or the players have this bad tendency to fall apart with each other ...)
However, the NPC known as Ivid, and the NPCs who invaded Medegia, were out to wantomly, actively, eagerly slay other sentient beings.

Yes, there are other ways besides killing to gain experience. But you know very well, and everyone knows very well, that historically killing has been the primary way in D&D. Other ways have been secondary (except for treasure in 1E, which was primary even over killing ... but killing the monster first and getting the treasure second was the first option most players took.)

Mindlessly slaying things does reap rewards in a game based on killing. Just ask Ivid. Ask his armies. Don't blame me ... TSR decreed this, and this is how it was (and really, still is.)

If they declare that building houses grants you one level per three houses built, or that sexual encounters grant you one level per three sexual encounters, THEN I will say that the game is not based on killing. Heh. LOL. I'm not holding my breath waiting for that to happen!

 

[WillieW]

Can you take this philosophy, and apply it to Medegia?
If yes, how would you do it?

Kill Ivid.

 

[Edena_of_Neith]

Hehe, sorry about that. It's late, and my heater isn't working.

Now, I don't know a whole lot about Greyhawk or its canon, but from the information you've provided (and it's rather interesting, if I might say so), conventional warfare doesn't look like it would work.

An alliance between Medegia and Ossom's armies was not strong enough (apparently). What weapons could a nation bring to bear against a largely evil army with the strength and aid of demons, as well as additional amounts of evil humans/humanoids?

What weapons are available in fighting against evil?

1) Sounds like you need a lot of good aligned Clerics and affiliated Paladins. Druids, too if you can manage it. But the first two are vital, I would think. With such divine aid, Celestial may be called to aid Midegia if at least some of the clergy are high enough level. Faith could be a way to forge ties with neighboring/nearby nations that follow the same faith.

2) Turning evil agianst itself. Can Medegia use some of its wealth (or generate more wealth) in order to "buy off" some of the evil army?

3) Make itself too valuable to attack. I don't know how (not really knowing anything about the place), but does Medegia have some kind of resource that Ivid might want? Can they destroy it if he decides to attack? Perhaps the people of Medegia could create such a resource?

4) Why can there be no outside aid? 100 years is a long time to forge alliances, and Midegia is clearly in need of allies.

Thank you. There's a lot of interesting and cool stuff in Greyhawk.

In the Canon, Medegia and Osson's forces never considered an alliance. But it could have happened in a What If scenario, yes.

You cited high level clerics of good summoning Celestials to fight for Medegia. A good idea.
But now the conundrum of D&D comes into play.
Those clerics must *reach* high level in order to be *able* to summon Celestials.
Those clerics, being good, are reluctant to kill. Thus they gain experience more slowly than ... than the *evil* clerics who actively kill and more quickly reach the levels needed to summon outsiders, and then the evil clerics summon the Fiends.
If it's a race to high level, my side to summon Celestials and your side to summon Fiends, and you have the faster car (because you're willing to kill, I'm reluctant to, and killing nets you experience and thus levels) then I'm out of luck.

Medegia probably attempted to gain neighboring aid.
But all the neighboring countries were either uninterested, or involved in wars of their own and unable to send help. Poor Medegia was completely on it's own.

Medegia could not buy off Ivid's army. This army was too eager for plunder: Medegian plunder. No amount of bribery would work when the army could have *all* the wealth of Medegia for the taking, once Medegia was leveled.
A sad state of affairs, but there it was.

In the Canon, Medegia had no vital resources that would have been destroyed by the invasion. Or if there were, Ivid was so insane and vengeful he did not care. He was obsessed with revenge for Medegia's supposed 'rebellion' against him (the Holy Censor rebelled, but the common people did not) and sought only retaliation.

 

[Edena_of_Neith]

Kill Ivid.

Hehe. Yes indeed. First thought to cross my mind too.
Medegia needed a champion strong enough to do that (a *good* scenario for high level good aligned characters, no? Saving Medegia, Almor, and other places, and stopping the war, by killing the insane Ivid!)

For some reason, though, Medegia itself could muster no such champion.
You would have thought someone in the country would have had the strength to do the job ...

One could just say TSR arbitrarily decided Medegia had no such recourse. (I think that's how it was.)
One could, however, also say that since Medegia was rather peaceful prior to the Greyhawk Wars, that no champion of high enough level could emerge (through killing people or overcoming obstacles) to get through the defenses of Rauxes and kill the crazy Ivid.

 

[Edena_of_Neith]

My pardons, folks: I just don't see any way for Medegia to have survived, other than it's 'good' and 'neutral' people learning to enjoy killing as fun and games ... and thus gain experience points rapidly and achieve high level.
And I cannot image how 'good' and 'neutral' people could ever come to enjoy killing as fun and games.
In other words, I cannot figure out a way to save Medegia, assuming the Canon restrictions that:

Medegia receives no outside help, planar or native.
Medegian people have nowhere to flee or hide.
Medegian people, have no access to artifacts or relics.
Medegian people, have no adventurers, to save them.
Medegian people, are on their own.

If someone can find a creative way to save Medegia, *I want to hear it.*
If someone can find a way for 'good' and 'neutral' peoples to enjoy killing and kill actively, while remaining 'good' and 'neutral' I also want to hear it! (If alignment is discarded, use a normal mentality versus a monstrous mentality: how do they retain a normal mentality?)

Yours Sincerely
Edena_of_Neith

 

[WillieW]

Hehe. Yes indeed. First thought to cross my mind too.
Medegia needed a champion strong enough to do that (a *good* scenario for high level good aligned characters, no? Saving Medegia, Almor, and other places, and stopping the war, by killing the insane Ivid!)

For some reason, though, Medegia itself could muster no such champion.
You would have thought someone in the country would have had the strength to do the job ...

That's what player characters are for.

If you have a moral quandry about killing Ivid, find a way to raise him from undead and attone for his evil, or banish the army, or put it out of phase, or banish it to an evil plane, have a sleeping plague decimate the army, or shift the good aligned folk to a good plane. There are any number of imaginative solutions. EDIT: Not to mention a Frodo-esque character, who doesn't have to be high level to achieve the end required.

 

[Edena_of_Neith]

Perhaps someone, using the 1E rules, robbed treasure-houses in Medegia so many times he made 30th level as a rogue?
Then he, as a 30th level rogue, proceeded to assassinate all the leaders of Ivid's army, then all the powerful monsters, then the leaders of the lesser forces ... so that the now terrorized and leaderless army fled in dismay from Medegia's borders?
And this bank robber, 30th level thanks to his buglary, kept on assassinating leaders and members of said army until it collapsed and fled to Rauxes in terror, and Medegia became a name of power and infamy?

LOL. Just kidding. (Although, in 1E, that COULD have happened, theoretically ... LOLOLOL.)