Killing as fun and games: a question for the Good Guys

[Edena_of_Neith]

Imagine that *your* high level PCs are Medegian, and are in Medegia.
Ivid's forces are starting to mass on the border.
Commandant Osson of Almor and his army, are still in Medegia, preparing to break out to Sunndi.

What would *your* characters do? How would they save Medegia?

 

[billd91]

Ok, to answer the Rebukes (not Rebuttals, but Rebukes ...)

I didn't set the scenario up, guys. TSR did.
TSR left Medegia out in the cold, without allies or hope of allies. TSR left Medegia without a capable fighting force or capable leadership, facing a juggernaut of an army sent by a madman and led by demons and madmen.
It's not *my* fault that things are so bleak for Medegia. Blame the Canon.

<snip>

Ivid's forces won and destroyed Medegia because they were more powerful than Medegia's army.
They were more powerful because they had practiced killing, embraced Evil, and had gained great powers by doing so.
The people of Medegia were weaker because they were peaceful, went about normal lives, and left the powermongering to the powermongers. What champions they had, were not powerful enough (especially at Pontylvers (sp?)) to protect their people.
It WAS a matter of power: sheer power. The Bad Guys won through sheer power.

That's how TSR set it up.

I think there's WAY too much metagaming thinking going on here. Let's look at it within the milieu of Greyhawk.

The See of Medegia is left out in the cold with no allies because they've never done anything, from a political perspective, to gain them. The Holy Censor has traditionally been a supporter of and advisor to the Malachite Throne. Are any enemies of the Great Kingdom going to white knight for Medegia when the nutty king turns on it? Heck no.
Now let's look at the two combatants: Medegia's population was about 250,000 according to the Greyhawk Folio, the Great Kingdom's was 5 million (which include N Province, S Province, and... Medegia). The economics alone of that imbalance is going to lead to the crushing of Medegia unless they have some really potent terrain advantage... which they don't.

Just like many examples of real history, the small state with easily penetrated borders is screwed when getting into fights with their more powerful neighbors. No reasonable game mechanic is going to make up for that. So, yes. Medegia was destroyed through sheer power, but that's what you'd expect even without the presence of demons and with armies that were comparable in individual troop quality. Medegia wasn't destroyed because they were peace-loving wusses who had never had a chance to gain any levels. It was destroyed because it was smaller in resources and blew the one main power resource it had: the good graces of a mad king with a lot of armies on his hands.

 

[Tewligan]

Why must the 'bad guy' always win, or lose only because the writer 'makes' him lose?

Although I'm not very schooled in Greyhawk history, certainly there are other situations in other imaginary countries where the good guys won, aren't there? Wasn't there a plague of demons and such somewhere that was banished when someone found an artifact (staff of Ptolus or Rao, or something like that?) Honestly, I barely understand the question quoted above - since the setting is fictional, of COURSE anyone who wins or loses does so only because the writer makes it happen. I have to say, I'm a little weirded out by the apparent anguish you're taking from this totally imaginary war atrocity...

Also, I think you're maybe being a little too zealous in linking a game mechanic to the "real" world. I don't think NPC's would think, "Wow, I'm inexplicably more powerful when I kill enough things and take their stuff!" I think of that as being a necessary tool to motivate and advance PC's, not necessarily a fact of life that motivates every NPC human, demihuman, and humanoid in the Flanaess. The rules don't always make sense if you look at them too closely for every aspect of the campaign world, and sometimes a little handwaving is necessary.

 

[Doug McCrae]

Why must the 'bad guy' always win

In gaming universes, evil must be more powerful than good, so the PCs have something to do. They can make the difference. If they do nothing, evil triumphs.

 

[Edena_of_Neith]

I'm not anguished over the poor Medegians.
Someone above is pointing out that no rulesset could save them, given their 250,000 to Ivid's 5 million. If that is truly so, then Medegia is ... doomed.

Ain't having a lot of power grand? I think Ivid thinks so.

In my home game, the Solistarim thought so too. And they did with many of the western nations, what Ivid did for Almor and Medegia.
Might makes right! (who needs that good and evil stuff? ... )

 

[Delta]

Entertainment in the Tudor period: see section #4.
http://www.historyonthenet.com/Tudors/entertainment.htm

 

[Edena_of_Neith]

Interesting.
In a fantasy context, I'm sure the Aerdian peasants - a grim lot - enjoy watching executions (and there are many executions for them to watch.)

So nobody can figure out a way for the Medegians to stand up for themselves?

Let's throw open all the rulessets. OD&D. 1E. 2E. 3E. 3.5E. d20.
Now, there must be something in there to allow the 250,000 in Medegia to stand against the roughly 5,000,000 in Aerdi. (Perhaps something in the Book of Exalted Deeds?)

If the Spartans could pull it off against the Persian Army, then the Medegians must have a way to pull it off against Ivid's Juggernaut.

 

[WillieW]

Interesting.
So nobody can figure out a way for the Medegians to stand up for themselves?

I think I just want to get back to fun and games at this point... Good luck with finding an answer you find satisfactory.

 

[Edena_of_Neith]

Thanks much, Willie. Cheers to you.

I'm delving into the philosophical right now. Curious to re-analyze certain things, try to view them through different prisms, see how they look in different lights.

 

[Arkhandus]

Will the people of Medegia, then, turn to evil, in order to obtain the strength they need to defend their country?
Or can the people of Medegia, while still neutral and even good aligned, find a way, within the game mechanics (even though they know nothing of the game mechanics) to obtain the strength necessary?

Which leads again to the question I posed: Is there a way for a good (or in this case neutral) aligned people to learn to view killing as fun and games?
Because, within the game mechanics, that is the *only way* for the people of Medegia, to survive Ivid's assault!!

......Non sequitur.

And you're painting them into a corner again, just saying that, for no apparent reason, they have no other choices. No way to forge alliances with the knowledge that they must do so or be wiped out in the future. No way to build an escape route and make preparations for a clever escape.

And you're saying that they must slaughter themselves to become stronger, that they must be evil to grow stronger. Which is false.

They can choose to fight evil, and grow stronger that way. Or they can find some way to avoid their eventual fate. Their nation does not exist in a void; there are others they can go to for aid, and others they can try to fight if they must to grow stronger. And they do not necessarily have to go attacking decent people for that to happen; they can grow stronger without being evil. It's just less conveniant and requires more traveling.


Knowing of their imminent destruction (and how can it be that their situation could be avoided in the future thanks to this knowledge, yet the 'lack of alliances and means of escape' that they suffer in the future cannot also be avoided thanks to this future-knowledge?), the people of Medegia can try to fight the forces of evil and hopefully put the evil humanoids they'd be facing later into submission, reducing the forces they would have to fight in the future (though not likely, since they're not likely to develop enough strength to crush Ivid's humanoid forces, but they could certainly start driving them back before that point). At the very least they can make a living of exterminating goblinoids and such, carving out some territory in the mountains or whatnot as they try to grow stronger.


There is no way to enjoy slaughter as fun and games and NOT be evil. Most people in ancient Rome would be described as Neutral or Evil in D&D terms. Blood sport was their preferred entertainment. Though at least, to the knowledge of the average citizen watching the Games, many of the people fighting and dying in the arena were criminals, so they weren't necessarily going to see the slaughter of decent people.


Also, just because the RAW of 2nd Edition didn't give you XP for stuff besides killing (and I can't really remember right now if it specifically said defeating stuff, or killing stuff, as the means of acquiring XP), does not mean that you're expected to assume that people only gain XP from killing stuff. The RAW of 2nd Edition didn't cover everything, to be certain, and left plenty up to DM adjudication or extrapolation. I'm pretty sure my 2E DMs gave the party XP when we managed to force an enemy to surrender or flee, as we 'defeated' them even though we didn't end their lives in the process.

Earlier editions gave you XP primarily for accumulating treasure. And 3rd Edition's core rules include story awards in the DMG, among other things, even though it only gives a vague set of ideas for how to judge them; because there is no way to quantify roleplay with rules. You have to use ad hoc rewards for roleplay, and can only really have some vague guidelines for it.