Killing as fun and games: a question for the Good Guys

[Numion]

I just think like Legolas and Gimli, who were competing who kills more in the Helms Deep battle. It seemed to be all fun and games to them, and that's how I play my neutral or good characters.

My PCs enjoy a good fight and like to kill evil. And they usually like even more to boast about their exploits later in the tavern

 

[Shazman]

Ivid and his armies had the level of power to destroy the city because TSR wanted it this way. PC's are the only ones that need to be concerned with exp. NPC's (except for PC cohorts) such as Ivid and his minions are whatever level they need to be to do the things they need to do for the sake of the story. They really don't have to be concerned with slaying things to gain power. Take a look at dragons. They don't have to slaughter lots of creatures to get more powerful, they just have to live a long time. Most monsters are powerful because of what they are, not what they have killed. Exp is just an artificial way to simulate how people get better at things by using their abilities in real world situations. Everyone gets better at doing something the more they do it even if it's a relatively simple task. In D&D exp is used to represent how much PC's learn from the experience when they overcome challenges, they eventually attain enough "experience" to "gain a level".

 

[Arkhandus]

Edena: Your ideas would only lead to all of Greyhawk having been destroyed long ago by evil, for you are basically, without realizing it, positing that good and neutral people in a D&D setting are going to be completely surpassed and overwhelmed by evil forces when it comes to level advancement and escalating power.

Obviously, Greyhawk is not a barren wasteland lorded over by Iuz and his ilk exclusively. Obviously, being decent people does not result in drastically slower/weaker advancement in strength.

Therefore: Medegia is not doomed simply by virtue of being good. Within the game world, they can grow strong enough to face off against the evil invaders without resorting to evil themselves.


And good people can build alliances. Not just with that one country you mentioned, but with others as well if they have the time. Good people and neutral people are more open to trade and alliances than evil people. They can forge stronger bonds than Ivid's forces, over time.

Medegia can train its people into a strong militia and develop without need for slaughtering masses of enemies first. They can send emissaries to go learn from great wizards in other lands, and then bring that knowledge back to Medegia and train a larger force of wizards to defend their homeland. They can see the reason why faith is so important, for they need divine aid to overcome the invaders that were prophecied.

They can form larger orders of clerics and, sending some of their forces out to fight evil, they can grow stronger and eventually summon Celestial allies to fight the force of Ivid when he comes a-calling.

Sowing discord in Ivid's forces can also work. Evil easily falls in upon itself out of individual greed, suspicion, or cowardice. Good is not above deceiving and disrupting enemies to keep them from uniting into a serious threat.


The 2E designers did not arbritrarily destroy Medegia just because 'good is weak and evil will always win, it's the only logical result in D&D'. They destroyed Medegia as part of the story, and likely as an example of what evil can do when it builds up enough steam while good people get lazy and too comfortable in their safe little lives. Thus do adventurers need to rise up and kick evil's arse, and motivate people to stop being lazy pansies and learn to fight for themselves, and fight well, dangit!

Game mechanics had nothing to do with it. It's possible that people in a 2E setting could build up strength without killing, or at the very least, could build up strength by killing evil creatures outside their homeland. Medegia just didn't focus enough on building up its strength, because the designers decided such for the story.

 

[Arkhandus]

I just think like Legolas and Gimli, who were competing who kills more in the Helms Deep battle. It seemed to be all fun and games to them, and that's how I play my neutral or good characters.

My PCs enjoy a good fight and like to kill evil. And they usually like even more to boast about their exploits later in the tavern

Of course, the orcs and Uruk-Hai in LotR were pure evil, molded to be so by Melkor, then Sauron. And Saruman took some orcs to make Uruk-Hai, training them to fight and kill for the Enemy's purposes too, so he could garner alliance with Sauron rather than be destroyed.

There was no moral quandary in slaying the orcs in LotR. They were well and truly Evil.

 

[Numion]

Of course, the orcs and Uruk-Hai in LotR were pure evil, molded to be so by Melkor, then Sauron. And Saruman took some orcs to make Uruk-Hai, training them to fight and kill for the Enemy's purposes too, so he could garner alliance with Sauron rather than be destroyed.

There was no moral quandary in slaying the orcs in LotR. They were well and truly Evil.

Yeah, that's what I meant, my PCs like killing evil stuff like Orcs, they're the evil cannonfodder in D&D too. In fact, I think they were modelled after Tolkiens Orcs, so it's all good to have a little fun slaying orcs.

 

[Rothe]

...

1) Killing is not the only way to gain xp.
2) Killing is actually only at best a secondary effect: You actually gain xp for overcoming a CR.
3) What the PC's experience and what the player's experience are two different things completely.

What he said. The original question is based on what I hope is the false premise that the only way to gain xp in D&D is to kill or steal.

I'm hoping it's false because it is just this kind of thinking, in part, that gave D&D a bad rap. Even if it is only a game, a game which reptitively reinforces pretend killing and pretend stealing as the only means of advancement makes many folks nervous, e.g., GTA. I'm not saying it turns people into killers and thieves, but don't think that because you characterize it as "fun and games" or as just way to "blow off steam" others won't think it bespeaks your character.

 

[Edena_of_Neith]

I think what you say is true, Rothe, and it is unfortunate.
People should not knock D&D because it caters to dark fantasy (or any sort of fantasy.)
Yet people - including Gamers I have known - do just that, and knock our game, and knock our roleplaying, especially if it involves evil characters. They even knock their fellow Gamers, and ruin the game ...

Anyways ...

TSR decided that Medegia had no allies, no help, no recourse, and no way for her people to escape. TSR decreed massacre for Medegia, an end to that realm and all her works. And if TSR decreed that, Medegia was sorta doomed.
All that's a given.

(sighs)

I honestly think that Medegia's answer - had TSR theoretically allowed it to have an answer - would have been somewhere in the rules themselves, and creative application of the rules. Or, since the NPCs of Medegia know nothing of the rules, creative NPC roleplaying and invention and achievement.
Somewhere in the rules and creative minds of those NPCs, like the answer to a puzzle, lies the Medegian key to victory.

Yes, they can gain through allies, alliances, artifacts and relics, assassinating Ivid, building and training their own forces, fortifying their nation for war, and a host of other measures.
But something else is needed. Something obscure, something beyond the pale. It's a puzzle, and the answer is not something I've figured out, but the Medegians need that answer.

That something special is needed because Medegia ultimately cannot win against Aerdi using conventional means. Aerdi is simply too powerful for Medegia to win a protracted war against it using conventional means.
Aerdi has it's own artifacts and relics. Aerdi has hordes of powerful monsters. Aerdi has vast armies of humans and humanoids. Aerdi has an enormous war machine and supply systems set up to support it. And the ruler of Aerdi - Ivid - falls, another takes his place. (Yes, if Aerdi disintegrates, as it did in the Canon, then Medegia wins. Just assume Aerdi stays in one piece for this discussion.)

For lack of better terminology, Medegia needs something Magical in order to protect herself.
It could be a roleplaying concept, a rules concept, a creative concept, or all of the above, but something new and different is needed.

What could that be?

Forget the idea of the Medegians turning to evil, or killing to gain experience, or whatever.
Medegia's answer needs to be something, but those things aren't what is needed.

 

[Edena_of_Neith]

(muses)

Consider the famous Ramen from the works of Stephen Donaldson.
If Medegia's 250,000 people were Ramen, Ivid's juggernaut would have been crushed.

What made the Ramen so powerful?
Simply dedication to protecting some horses, and a reaction of magic to that dedication.

These horse-lovers (in such numbers) who had no cities or towns or villages or spells or even metal weapons, would destroy Ivid's legions of orcs and humanoids and humans with appalling ease. Demons would be a harder fight, but they'd find ways to deal with them too.

(And, they'd deal with Legolas and Gimli with ease too. Gimli wouldn't know what hit him. Legolas would fall after shooting - and maybe killing - a few Ramen.)

Yes, the people of Medegia must look beyond the pale.

 

[Edena_of_Neith]

(muses)

You know what really destroyed Medegia?
It's Mundanity.

 

[shilsen]

(muses)

Consider the famous Ramen from the works of Stephen Donaldson.
If Medegia's 250,000 people were Ramen, Ivid's juggernaut would have been crushed.

What made the Ramen so powerful?
Simply dedication to protecting some horses, and a reaction of magic to that dedication.

These horse-lovers (in such numbers) who had no cities or towns or villages or spells or even metal weapons, would destroy Ivid's legions of orcs and humanoids and humans with appalling ease. Demons would be a harder fight, but they'd find ways to deal with them too.

(And, they'd deal with Legolas and Gimli with ease too. Gimli wouldn't know what hit him. Legolas would fall after shooting - and maybe killing - a few Ramen.)

Yes, the people of Medegia must look beyond the pale.

Wait a sec. I've been watching this thread on and off and grinning because it's fairly silly and way too reminiscent of the "Elves are doomed!" one, but this one needs a comment. You don't find anything strange in conflating the work of three completely different fantasy authors (I'm considering the set writing about Greyhawk as a whole), each writing about a unique fantasy world, which is highly divergent from the others and has its own rules, context and power levels?

Saying that if Medegia's inhabitants were Ramen they could beat Ivid and Legolas and Gimli too is a lot like saying that Drizzt could take Vader but the Enterprise would beat them both. There really is no basis for comparison between the various components you're putting together here, any more than there is between two five year olds arguing about whose imaginary friend is stronger.