Kinda changing rules without telling players.

[Drakron]

I disagree, the PHB is the only book that players need but by the unwritten agreement is that of playing under 3rd ed D&D core rules.

MM and DMG are core books and players are supposed to also know the rules in those books.

Everything else is house rule that it sould be presented to the group.

As a player I dislike not knowing the rules being used and worst would subjected to "DM changes rules at whim without informing the players".

The player used a spell that proved less useful as he know that it would be and the DM simply evaded the question since that is exactly what you did.

 

[JacktheRabbit]

See, I disagree with this basic premise. There are no rules a player *shouldn't* know. There are some he may not *have* to know, but none he *shouldn't.*.

Someone else mentioned the implied contract of trust between player and DM, and this is very true. Part of keeping trust is knowing that certain rules. If the players are kept ignorant of said rules, it erodes the trust... they have no way of knowing you aren't just making stuff up on the fly to make things harder for them.

So the very first time a character gets level drained he should know he gets a second saving throw in 24 hours even though there is no reason he would know this.

The very first time a character finds a cursed item he should know what level cleric he should have to find to get rid of it.

Etc, etc, etc.....

That is where I do not agree at all. When the players know everything there is no mystery and a lot of potential fun is gone.

 

[JacktheRabbit]

The player used a spell that proved less useful as he know that it would be and the DM simply evaded the question since that is exactly what you did.

No, that player was CHEATING and using meta-knowledge that his character had no way of knowing to try to use a spell that should work.

If the character was 10th level and using a spell the exact same way in the exact same situation that he had before then he has every right to expect a certain result.

The first time anything is done in a completely new to the character situation he should NEVER expect to know exactly what will happen. That is cheating pure and simple.

If that still makes no sense look at it this way. Unless a Player uses META knowledge the Magic Weapon spell made no sense to use. Granting it to a barbarian that was already hitting with every blow and doing decent damage was a complete waste of a spell. What is a +1 hit and damage to a character doing +8 attack and 2D6+6 damage? Its trivial. But if that character uses meta knowledge and knows that the spell will negate the DR and allow all his damage to go through then he is pure and simple cheating.

 

[Lord Pendragon]

You miss the point

Fair enough, since you seem to be missing mine. I don't agree with you. I understanding what you're saying, I simply don't think it's right.

1. The only thing a player can argue that his character automatically knows is the material in the PHB. Even that is limited though, a half-orc barbarian better not be quoting exact information on high level arcane spells.

Regardless of whether a campaign has just started, the PC has been living in your world for at least 16 years or so. That means they know a heck of a lot more about that world than what's in the PH, which of course is nothing. They know where the best tavern is in their hometown. They know whether the guards are straight or on the take. They know who their king is, and whether there are a lot of wizards running around, or hardly any. And yes, IMO, they know whether creatures resistant to damage can be hurt by odd substances rather than high-magic.

2. There is no such things as the DnD "laws of Physics" the DR rules are meta rules created to easily control the idea of DR. It has no bearing on characters in the game world. To them it means a were-creature instantly heals a good amount if not all of a wound if it is not created with silver.

My point was that every campaign will have rules about how the world works, and those rules don't change. Moreover, players/PCs should know those rules. Your example, "a were-creature instantly heals a good amount if not all of a wound if it is not created with silver" is one of those rules for your world, and the players/PCs should have known it before going into that battle. At the very least you should have told them once the battle began.

End of story.

Hardly. By the number of people who disagree with you, the story is nowhere near finished.

 

[JacktheRabbit]

Your example, "a were-creature instantly heals a good amount if not all of a wound if it is not created with silver" is one of those rules for your world, and the players/PCs should have known it before going into that battle. At the very least you should have told them once the battle began.

You have yet to explain to me how the players would know this. Sure they can see that the weapons almost completely heal. That is no way explains to them HOW this happens, or HOW they keep it from continuing to happen.

Just saying "they would have heard it somewhere" doesnt cut it. This is DnD. The characters are brand new with very little combat experience. I gave them skill rolls to know more and they barely made those rolls. That gave them the knowledge that silver would work. If one of them had rolled better or had a more appropriate skill to use maybe they could have learned more about them.

To just say "they would just know" is a rather arrogant cop out.

 

[Zappo]

I am strongly opposed to making house rules and not letting the players know them. And I think that most of the DMG rules should be known by the players as well (most special conditions, damage from falling, holding your breath, reactions, all that sort of stuff - everyone knows gravity). The way basic stuff works, and the way the PCs' own abilities work, should never be house-ruled without informing the players.

However... not so for the MM. Not so for magical items, either. Oh, and also not so for NPCs' spells and special abilities.

Why? Because a monster could be a new monster not in the MM. Magical items and spells can be custom-made. Even special abilities aren't granted; the NPC could have a prestige class that the characters never heard of, or he might have undergone some strange ritual. In other words, the characters aren't expected to know anything about these things.

As long as there is an explanation, even if it's something as simple as "it's a monster not in the MM", even if the explanation isn't actually given to the PCs until they do some research, changing any of these is fine for me.

 

[Gizzard]

Someone else mentioned the implied contract of trust between player and DM, and this is very true. Part of keeping trust is knowing that certain rules. If the players are kept ignorant of said rules, it erodes the trust... they have no way of knowing you aren't just making stuff up on the fly to make things harder for them.

Although the 3rd Edition ruleset is more complete than 2E or 1E, its still the DMs job to keep things rolling by making up rules for situations that havent been covered. In my experience, this means that the DM is making a good handful of judgement calls and new rules on the fly every session. The players have to "trust" the DM to do this fairly, or else they cant play an average session without running into conflict.

As for Docs particular situation, the DM has to respond clearly to the player to make sure he understands that you havent forgotten about the magic weapon rule, but other than that I dont think you have any obligation to spell out the minutia of the new DR rules. When this comes up, I do exactly what Dash suggested, "You are a bit surprised that your beloved magic weapon has let you down in this case."

 

[Mercule]

Well, I've used similar DR rules to what's in 3.5E since my 1E days so I can't give you any specific examples from my own history. The closest I can give is that I threw in a werewolf that required a gold weapon to harm it without telling the players. Perfectly fair, IMHO.

As far as your particular case, I don't think you were in the _wrong_ in this, but I think you could have been more right without giving away too much. Let me explain.

There are two bits of knowledge that the player seemed to be assuming.

1) Lycanthropes require silver to hit. This is probably fair enough. _Everyone_ in our world knows this, so it's likely that the adventuring types in a fantasy setting would know it.

2) Anyone with the Magic Weapon spell is likely to know that part of its properties include overriding the need for silver, etc. weapons. That's going to vary from setting to setting, but it is fair for a player to assume.

When the player kept reminding you about the Magic Weapon, it might have been worth a quick aside to him asking him, "You keep saying that. Maybe I'm missing something. Why, exactly, did your character cast that spell?"

No doubt, he would have responded with something like, "Because a magic weapon can hit things that need silver weapons to hit them."

You respond, "That's not common knowledge. Your character wouldn't _know_ that, but I can see where it makes sense that he would have tried it. I think the best bet for your character would be to watch how his hypothesis plays out."

What this approach would have done is to clarify what knowledge the characters could reasonably act upon without "spilling the beans", as it were.

As far as the actual rules change goes, I see nothing wrong with it in the least. The only problem is the assumptions the players made.

 

[Ruined]

I'm with Doc on this one. If the players presume that their methods will work because they know what the monsters *should* have, and their characters have never encountered them before, I call that meta-gaming. I presume that Doc didn't totally screw them, having them in a situation where they can't affect the creature and they can't escape. The game is about presenting and overcoming challenges, not a game of one-upsmanship between players and DM.

This sounds like a classic moment where the heroes find their magics ineffective and must seek out the 'Blessed Hand Grenade' to slay the dragon.

 

[Mallus]

Personally, I wouldn't want to play in a game where the entirety of the PH/DMG/MM is known to starting characters. I think it would be dull. I hope every new campaign I play in recaptures a little of sense of wonder I felt in my first ever game of AD&D, when I knew absolutely nothing of RPG'ing...