Kinda changing rules without telling players.

[Murrdox]

So tell me.

How does Dalla the 16 year old 2nd level fighter who just recently quit the town guard know exactly what the DR is of every foe they could ever fight and how to defeat it?

He DOESN'T know the exact DR of every given foe. That's absurd.

HE DOES KNOW however...

That DR exists.
There are different types of DR.
A high DR can be beaten by a more powerful weapon.

HE DOES NOT KNOW

That an adult green dragon has DR 10/+1
A Kyton has DR 15/+2 and takes normal damage from holy weapons.

HE MIGHT KNOW

That Lycanthropes are vulnerable to silver
That Vampires need to be staked through the heart
A crossbow bolt kills a Rakshasa
Magic can't hurt a Golem


Do you see the difference? The first example is common knowledge. Every adventurer, unless they are completely ignorant of the world they live in, is aware of DR. They know what it is, but they don't know every creature that has it, or the types of things necessary to beat all types of DR. He MIGHT know certain vulnerabilities of certain creatures, and he MIGHT learn a few examples of creatures that have different types of DR. He's not going to know the EXACT DR of ANY creature unless he's had a lot of experience fighting them, or he's been educated by someone who has. If that level 2 fighter had a grandfather who hunted werewolves for a living, you can bet your ass he knows exactly what the DR for a werewolf is.


There's nothing wrong with introducing a creature with a new and unexpected type of DR that works differently than normal DR. No problems there. But if you're going to change how DR works IN GENERAL, then you should inform your players about that.

 

[Brown Jenkin]

<Inigo Montoya> I do not think that my analogy means {to you} what I think it means {to me}</Montoya>

What I meant was that every starting player is 'travelling to a strange land' when they begin play in a new campaign. A place where they have only a rudimetary knowledge of how things work.

I'm assuming that at the start of play, low-level characters don't have a large body of 'adventure's common knowlege'. This is just the kind of game I run and like to play in.

I believe where we differ is on how rudimentary thier knowlege of how things work is. I disagree completely and believe that even spending even 16 years growing up in a land of magic and monsters that the characters already have a good sense of how the world works. My knowelege of the rules and the characters knowelege of his world are similar (but not exactly the same I know). I believe in playing differently than you do and I personally don't like the same type of game as you do. To each his own, but the problem arises when the two of us play together without first agreeing on how far one way or another our game should be. If we agree to play your way fine, but if it is sprung on me without my knowlege beforehand then I will be upset.

 

[JacktheRabbit]

He DOESN'T know the exact DR of every given foe. That's absurd.

HE DOES KNOW however...

That DR exists.
There are different types of DR.
A high DR can be beaten by a more powerful weapon.

HE DOES NOT KNOW

That an adult green dragon has DR 10/+1
A Kyton has DR 15/+2 and takes normal damage from holy weapons.

HE MIGHT KNOW

That Lycanthropes are vulnerable to silver
That Vampires need to be staked through the heart
A crossbow bolt kills a Rakshasa
Magic can't hurt a Golem


Do you see the difference? The first example is common knowledge. Every adventurer, unless they are completely ignorant of the world they live in, is aware of DR. They know what it is, but they don't know every creature that has it, or the types of things necessary to beat all types of DR. He MIGHT know certain vulnerabilities of certain creatures, and he MIGHT learn a few examples of creatures that have different types of DR. He's not going to know the EXACT DR of ANY creature unless he's had a lot of experience fighting them, or he's been educated by someone who has. If that level 2 fighter had a grandfather who hunted werewolves for a living, you can bet your ass he knows exactly what the DR for a werewolf is.


There's nothing wrong with introducing a creature with a new and unexpected type of DR that works differently than normal DR. No problems there. But if you're going to change how DR works IN GENERAL, then you should inform your players about that.

Nope, this is all just your opinion. Nowhere in the PHB does it suggest that the players know all of this.

If I bring in a group of new players who have never played DnD before do you expect me to pass along every bit of the information you just mentioned?

 

[Mallus]

Dalla would know many things from training with the gaurd. They would teach her that some monsters are not hurt by ordinary weapons and that if they run accross one of these the "SWAT" team with special weapons needs to be called in. She will know whether the "SWAT" team had only magic weapons or whether they have a arsenal of different material types for different creatures.

What you're talking about are a set of assumptions that are true for your campaign. Dalla's equivalent in my current setting wouldn't know any of those things...

 

[JacktheRabbit]

Dalla would know many things from training with the gaurd. They would teach her that some monsters are not hurt by ordinary weapons and that if they run accross one of these the "SWAT" team with special weapons needs to be called in. She will know whether the "SWAT" team had only magic weapons or whether they have a arsenal of different material types for different creatures. They would teach her about common monsters that cause trouble in towns and cities like Lycanthropes. Her training will consist of both her own insights and those of her veteran superior officers who will tell her stories of thier own experiences and she will be taught by the church/wizards guild about special threats they have heard of and want to keep the town safe from. She will also have heard stories growing up about all kinds of things in the world (just like when we were sixteen we knew about much of the world through stories [books and movies]) both folktales ands stories from wandering bards.

Yep I am sure every village of 700 people is going to have a magical "swat" team to take care of problems for them.

 

[Brown Jenkin]

Yep I am sure every village of 700 people is going to have a magical "swat" team to take care of problems for them.

Thanks for the rolleyes. You did not specify how big the town is, whether they are part of a larger government or anything else. Granted, I made an assumption, but so did you that we would know these things.

 

[Drakron]

Why not?

700 people is a lot of people (definitly not a village) and with the existence of strange powerful creatures and worst, adventurers running around ...

Also adding retired adventurers and local adventuring parties any city sould have enough skill, knowledge and magic to defend very well against low level threats.

And a Lycantrope is not even a medium level threat, a lycanthrope infestation is always potencial risk since its a contamination and in fact is in a fantasy setting were lycantrope exist they sould be known because of the potencial risk they present (very much like the black plage).

Also the notion of the town guard being composed only of lv1-2 fighters is rather silly, they sould also have higher level officers that have gear that reflect their levels.

Its so strange to see the town guard having at least 4 or 5 lv4-5 characters that act as officers?

 

[D'karr]

Doc;

First of all you aren't changing any rules that apply to players so you don't have to tell them crap. You can adjust monsters as freely as you want. It's not the player's handbook, do what you want.

If you decided from now on that all Lycanthropes shoot freaking laser beams from their head that is well within your world to do. As long as you are consistent with your rulings you can do whatever the hell you want.

Before everyone starts getting their panties in a bunch about that, I'd refer everyone to chapter 1 of the DMG. Specifically the sections titled Teaching the Game, Adjudicating and Changing the Rules.

It is the Dungeon Master's responsibility to know the rules and also to create the world around the player's. If in Doc's world all lycanthropes shoot laser beams that might very well be a well known fact but then again nobody might have ever seen a laser beam shooting were-rat before. Since the PC's have never had any encounter with the aforementioned creatures all their player knowledge is hollow. Since they also had never heard of them or on what tactics work best on them using a specific type of spell doesn't work. I hope they now understand that lycanthropes can only be harmed with silver weapons.

If you decide that all goblins are 3 HD monsters and now they all have 12 HP instead of 4 it doesn't matter if the player's "know" that goblins only have 4 HP. It's irrelevant. In your world goblin's are sturdier. The PC's might or might not know this. It is up to the DM to adjudicate that. Once the PC's learn this fact then keep it consistent. From that point on all goblins should be sturdier and all lycanthropes should shoot laser beams.

Doc I agree with you. Just make sure that you are consistent with your rulings and make your descriptions sufficient for the PC's to learn how your world works.

 

[D'karr]

[snip]
I believe in playing differently than you do and I personally don't like the same type of game as you do. To each his own, but the problem arises when the two of us play together without first agreeing on how far one way or another our game should be. If we agree to play your way fine, but if it is sprung on me without my knowlege beforehand then I will be upset.

Well, the difference in this is if you are the DM or a player. If you are a player in my game there are things you will know about the world. They are given to you in a short list of changes as they apply to the PC's.

In the case we are talking about here the change is not to the PC's, it is to a monster. So in my world you wouldn't know jack about it unless it is common knowledge. Legends tend to be very fuzzy, you know...

So should you get upset that I've decided to put laser beams on my lycanthropes heads that is your problem, not mine. You can choose to play in my game or you can "gets a steppin."

It's very simple. The game world is the DM's to develop however they see fit. If the player's don't like the game they can leave. Most DM's create a world that is entertaining, and creating new challenges is part of that equation. If a player doesn't agree with the challenges then they don't need to play in that game anymore.

 

[La Bete]

Interesting points Doc,

while I have certainly disagreed with you in the past, I would be inclined to back you on this one. Why?

You make the point that these are newbie PC's - they dont know very much about the world.

Yes - they should know some basic legends. Doc gave them a roll, and dished out some info. If they had got a higher roll, they may have got more info.

If they had been hardened adventurers it might have been a different story.

If they had run into wererats before, and Magic Weapon had worked before it might have been a different story.

The only possible issue is the Magic Weapon spell. Did the wizards master, when teaching him the spell say "Oh aye, this spell be effective against werecreatures this be, arrr"? If so, then the player has some justification for being grumpy.

Personally, since youre not really changing stuff mid-stream, I dont have a problem with what you are doing.

Possibly, if a player picks up an item or spell that will work differently, a word that it may work differently is in order. But working that into the campaign - such as in the combat is a good way of doing it.