Knight base class

[manduck]

Hello Manduck,

I feel that the paladin is a very different beast than the knight. The Paladin is has to follow its tenets, uses magic, and channels the power of his god to smite his opponents. Also i feel that home brewing abilities compared to the paladin's power level would be blasted into the ground, paladin is pretty insane.

Some people like to play fantastical but still nonmagical classes.

You could make a fighter with high charisma, protection fighting style and defender, but it wouldn't be a very sticky tank. A fighter with his extra attacks will always be a better attacker than a defender. The knight could lock down multiple opponents at once and be a more dedicated support class (if going order of the shield)
i'm playing a purple dragon knight (protection fighting style), but it still doesn't quite fit the bill i feel.

The Great cleave feature is deliberately similar to the great weapon master feat. A dedicated great weapon knight could reduce an opponent to 0hp or crit, get his free attack with Great Cleave, and use his bonus action for another attack with GWM or use its bonus action to activate a free fighting challenge.

The niche would be
Order of the shield: Dedicated defender/Support (however nothing stops you from playing a 2-handed OotS knight)
Order of the sword: Defender/Striker (likewise, you could play a two handed or Sword and board OotS knight)
Order of the gilded spurs: Dedicated mounted combat.

I figured you were going for a non-magical type of class that can lock down an enemy. My point was simply that there are classes in the game already that can do what the Knight does, in the same way a Knight does it or better.

Now that you've explained a bit more, I can see where you going. Locking down multiple opponents is something lacking in the martial classes. A Battlemaster fighter with Sentinel would be very sticky in locking down one guy. The maneuvers allow for knockdowns, fear, counter attacks and so on plus the feat that stops movement. A second guy comes along and that fighter is a bit stuck. Same with the paladin (and yeah, paladins are beasts).

The Great Cleave feature should probably be tossed out. I see where you're going with it. Though if you can replicate it close enough with a feat, let the players take the feat and use the class feature for something more unique. If you're drawing the attention of multiple attackers, what you really need is damage mitigation. The rest of the party can help with damage or take advantage of how you have the bad guys locked down. You can't attack anything if you're dead.

So I think the core of the Knight class should be to fill that unique niche of locking down multiple opponents. I really liked the reduced movement when near the Knight, for example. So I would build of that base concept of being a burden to multiple attackers. Since you'll be focused on and need to survive, I think option 1 or 2 from below are better choices. Also keep in mind that at higher levels, you'll have to deal with multi-attack. If you have 4 enemies locked in on you and they all can attack two or three times, you'll be dead in a round. It feels like you need more defensive options. I'd worry a lot less about finding ways to generate extra attacks or do bigger damage. We have the fighter and paladin for that. The Knight, as you've started to build here, feels more like it should be a terror to get past. He'll slow you down. You'll swing away at him and he'll shrug it off or deflect your blows away. The Knight feels like it should be more about control and taking charge. Perhaps rather than giving the Knight an extra attack if he drops someone, have his fierce combat prowess impose disadvantage on anyone else locked down by him for a round. That way he has a better chance at surviving longer to keep people locked down.

In other words, take this really cool concept of locking down multiple opponents and really bring it out.

 

[Ivocles]

I feel like the locking down multiple enemies has been covered by the order of the shield subclass, with it's immovable object feature (which gives an extra reaction). you are right about the damage mitigation, that was my concern too. Would it be too much to give the knight resistance to piercing, bludgeoning and slashing damage while in it's Immovable Object stance?

The order of the sword should be a more offensively focused archetype. you are right that the great cleave feature does not bring anything unique to the table. What i am looking for is a feature that improves upon its fighting challenge or damage somehow.

I think i am going to go with this for formally trained for now

Formally trained
You have trained extensively with a broad range of weapons, and can use them in creative ways.
You strike with the butt of your sword or axe, drive the point of your blade between the enemy's ribs, or smash armour with your morning star.

Using swords, axes,or halberds, you choose whether you deal slashing, bludgeoning or piercing damage. Its damage die remains the same.
If you are wielding a Mace, Maul, Warhammer, Warpick, Flail or Morning Star you have advantage on your attack rolls if your opponent is wearing heavy armour.

 

[manduck]

I feel like the locking down multiple enemies has been covered by the order of the shield subclass, with it's immovable object feature (which gives an extra reaction). you are right about the damage mitigation, that was my concern too. Would it be too much to give the knight resistance to piercing, bludgeoning and slashing damage while in it's Immovable Object stance?

The order of the sword should be a more offensively focused archetype. you are right that the great cleave feature does not bring anything unique to the table. What i am looking for is a feature that improves upon its fighting challenge or damage somehow.

I think i am going to go with this for formally trained for now

Formally trained
You have trained extensively with a broad range of weapons, and can use them in creative ways.
You strike with the butt of your sword or axe, drive the point of your blade between the enemy's ribs, or smash armour with your morning star.

Using swords, axes,or halberds, you choose whether you deal slashing, bludgeoning or piercing damage. Its damage die remains the same.
If you are wielding a Mace, Maul, Warhammer, Warpick, Flail or Morning Star you have advantage on your attack rolls if your opponent is wearing heavy armour.

I don't think it's too much to include resistance to piercing, slashing and bludgeoning. Though I think that resistance should be part of the base class and not limited to the shield sub class. Reason being, the base class is what gives you Fighting Challenge. Since getting a hold of that group comes from the fighting challenge, I would put the resistance there. So say that the Knight gets resistance to those damage types against anyone affected by their fighting challenge.

As for Immovable Object, throw in some immunity to forced movement or being knocked prone. Literally be immovable. Since Shield is more defensive, giving that extra reaction with an attack at advantage seems a bit aggressive. Perhaps that extra reaction with the attack belongs over in Sword. In Shield, you can still have that extra reaction and make it uniquely shield oriented. Like as a reaction you can use your shield to push the subject back and then advance into their space. So the shield still benefits from the extra reaction and does something control and defensive oriented. You'll still have a reaction left for something else, like an opportunity attack or whatever.

Then over in Sword, the Knight can assume a stance that gives an extra reaction and they make opportunity attacks with advantage when using that extra reaction. Now the Sword Knight has a more aggressive way to handle multiple attackers trying to move around them. They can hit more people to punish them for moving around. I'm still trying to think up ways the sword subclass can get some extra damage in. It seems like fighting challenge is the engine that makes the whole class run, like a barbarian's rage. So perhaps taking some inspiration from Barbarian isn't a bad idea. Maybe throw in a damage bonus against challenged enemies. You could even make it based on the number of foes challenged. Starting at low levels, they get a +1 to damage per opponent challenged against anyone who is challenged. Then scale it up from there, to keep it competitive. It goes up to +2, +3 and so on. With the extra reaction attack and a solid damage bonus, moving around the sword knight becomes very dangerous. I'm just not sure how balanced something like that is.