Knocked prone

[Kaffis]

I understand the 4e model, but the rat 'fink' DM in me sees those movement forcing effects as 'save or die' without the save.

<snip lots of "knock him to his doom!" examples>

Or perhaps your players will learn to give perilous precipouses a healthy respect, rather than choosing to fight on the adjacent square constantly. Wow, look at the realism!

If I'm fighting something that's been knocking me around 2 squares, I'm going to end my turn 3 squares away from any environmental hazards.

You don't even lose the cinematic "close call" feeling of fighting on the edge, because eventually, you're going to get knocked from 3 squares away to adjacent to that hazard. That's the equivalent of the "vertigo shot" in the fight scene, where the hero gets backed against the edge. Oh, and what's the first thing he tries to do when that happens? Move away from it!

 

[FitzTheRuke]

Besaides, doesn't that save violate the "end of round, save ends"-type design of new saving throws.

There are several uses for the saving throw that do not follow the "end of round, save ends" formula. The new saving throw's use is more broad than that. You are thinking of ONE of it's uses.

Personally, I don't have a problem with the save-prone, don't-save-fall mechanic. I envision sliding towards a ledge and throwing yourself on the ground desperately grasping for anything to hold onto before you go over. Make the save, something is there to grasp. Fail it - sorry, you scrabble about until you slide off the edge. This also explains the "why prone?" question. Because you DROPPED prone to save yourself.

Fitz

 

[FitzTheRuke]

The part that really bugs me is that the save puts the defender on the ground rather than hanging onto the edge.

Bah. The "on the ground" thing is a mechanical representation of where your miniature should be placed. You are free to describe it as body-off-the-edge, white-knuckles-grasping-that-tree-root if you like. It's just meant to be clear that it takes a move action to get up and holds all the penalties of the prone condition.

Fitz

 

[D'karr]

For a game that is mostly played in the imagination, there seems to be a lack when it comes to some things around these parts.

 

[FireLance]

For a game that is mostly played in the imagination, there seems to be a lack when it comes to some things around these parts.

Imagination? I've got maps and minis! I don't need no steenking imagination. It's all about the verisimulationitude!

 

[Morrus]

The part that really bugs me is that the save puts the defender on the ground rather than hanging onto the edge.

They're one and the same thing. It's a game mechanic, not a paragraph of fluff text. "Prone" doesn't mean "reclining gently upon one's back, one's head resting in a soft, fluffy pillow", it means anything from that to "hanging onto the edge of a cliff, having just prevented a long fall".

The descriptive bit's your job, the the rules mechanics' job.

 

[pemerton]

So, forced movement is harder to do when the person has less purchase on the surface you are trying to knock him across?

Metagame harder, yes. Ingame harder, no. The save is a metagame device (like spending a Fate Point).

By analogy: in an RPG with a Fate Point mechanic, a player whose PC is on low hitpoints is more likely to spend a Fate Point to ameliorate an attack then is a player whose PC is on full hitpoints. We don't therefore infer that it is harder, ingame, to hurt a badly injured than an uninjured person.

It's all about appropriate distinction between ingame and metagame.

 

[frankthedm]

They're one and the same thing. It's a game mechanic, not a paragraph of fluff text. "Prone" doesn't mean "reclining gently upon one's back, one's head resting in a soft, fluffy pillow", it means anything from that to "hanging onto the edge of a cliff, having just prevented a long fall".

The descriptive bit's your job, the the rules mechanics' job.

It is not just descriptive.

They occupy the space that is on solid ground. No other foe can take that space they should have left to occupy the edge.

They did not need to drop anything to grab the ledge. In 3e you had a chance to use the Climb sill to grab ledges, but it had the requirement of free hands to use the skill.

They are in no further danger falling off unless someone else uses a power that pushes or slides. Being hit when prone does not have a chance to slide you off a nearby edge. Being beat on while hanging on for dear life should.

 

[Celebrim]

It is not just descriptive.

Right. Mechanics are descriptive. There is no way around that. You can superficially paint a mechanic but ultimately the mechanic defines the situation in ways that are more descriptive than any amount of fluff.

 

[Celebrim]

It's all about appropriate distinction between ingame and metagame.

I agree that it is all about the distinction between ingame and metagame. In particular, it is all about which flow of information has superiority. Does the ingame rule the metagame or does the metagame rule the ingame.

Any 'gamist' inclined game says that the metagame rules the ingame. That is to say, the rules are the way that they are, the physics of the game are the way that they are, and things happen in the game the way that they do primarily for metagame reasons. For example, characters get a saving throw to avoid be pushed in a gamist game, if and only if being pushed has some additional negative consequence. This is for reasons of balance. Why do minions die in one hit? Because it makes the metagame simplier. The flow of information is therefore metagame to ingame with the metagame ruling the ingame.

Any 'simulationist' game works the other way. In game situations dictate the rules. A person pushed off a ledge gets a chance to catch the edge, not for reasons of game balance but because we can imagine that character doing so in the game world. If we can't imagine them catching the ledge, say rocketed into the air by a catapolt, then they get no chance of doing so. With the 'simulationist' the imagined in game reality determines what sort of rules that we need. If you want to catch the ledge, you have to drop your weapon because you need your hands. If the player says, "But my weapon is a pick and quite suitable for grabbing the ledges or otherwise arresting falls.", then you probably go with it because it fits even if there are no rules. "Ok, fine, make your climb check, and you are hanging on to your pick.", and then try to think what that means.

Contrary to some accusations, I'm not really claiming the superiority of one sort of game experience over the other. Both ways are fun to play. Both ways have potential pitfalls. A good case can be made for both styles. But I am very much saying which one I prefer in an RPG, but that's a different thing. As I've said before, 4e seems well designed for what it is, but it wasn't designed for me.