Knocking Godzilla Prone

[Felon]

I could easily slice a level 30 solo lich in two with one swing of my sword, descriptively, yet it takes many attacks to put him down. Are you arguing that since the lich can be knocked down by my shield, I should also be able to kill him with my sword in one swing?

No, I try to avoid "two wrongs make a right" arguements.

All the same, might want to switch to another monster besides liches, since they're traditionally highly resistant to physical attacks, especially swords, though perhaps not anymore....

EDIT--Looked it up. Nope, no more DR 15/bludgeoning. Regen 10 instead.

 

[pawsplay]

Why? We're not talking about the real world. We're talking about someone who's gone beyond hero, beyond being an expert, but is more likely than not a demigod. Physical strength and mass alone are not what makes an exploit work. Your dragonborn fighter isn't just some shmo whacking a tarrasque with a stick.

It reminds me of one of the Final Fantasy games, where we determined you were able to suplex a haunted train. It was one of those giant boss monsters that took up the whole screen, too. Hilarious!

 

[Hussar]

Come on, one more rationalizer for the hat trick!

Seriously, the problem with such equivocation is that it makes monsters bland. Players just mash the same hotkeys in every fight. Monsters make memorable impressions when they force the party to change their routine tactics. If you throw a jelly or a swarm or a colossus at players, and then they're affected by all of the tricks that affect every other monster, then it kind of defeats the purpose of using the jelly, swarm, or colossus to begin with.

But, this direction leads us to the problems of making some classes useless. Like the 3e rogue's sneak attack powers against various creature types. Once you start doing this, you will find that you're whacking various classes very heavily with the nerf bat.

Remember, being prone is not a major deal anymore. -2 to attack, and I believe standing does not provoke. Big deal. So the PC's want to knock the big monster prone? Looks cool.

 

[Mr.Black]

It reminds me of one of the Final Fantasy games, where we determined you were able to suplex a haunted train. It was one of those giant boss monsters that took up the whole screen, too. Hilarious!

That would be awesome. I'd like to see the message boards if a 4th ed monk could suplex the tarrasque!

 

[Felon]

But, this direction leads us to the problems of making some classes useless. Like the 3e rogue's sneak attack powers against various creature types. Once you start doing this, you will find that you're whacking various classes very heavily with the nerf bat.

You touch on a good point. The thing is, you don't have to make everything susceptable to everything in order to avoid this problem. Another approach is to design classes not to be one-trick ponies. The 3e rogue's problem was that if he couldn't tap into sneak attack damage, then he was thoroughly nerfed simply because that was all he had to contribute in any battle.

4e actually does give all classes a nice suite of abilities--so much so that you don't need the promise that nothing will be immune to any one thing you do. I don't think a fighter or rogue need pack up and go home just because they can't knock an ooze or swarm prone.

 

[Surgoshan]

Why can't a fighter knock a swarm prone? Say he's wielding a maul and hits with an attack that knocks a target prone as an effect. So his maul squished one member of the swarm and the attack made the ground shake so much that the other members of the swarm fell down. We're dealing with high fantasy; people are going to regularly do things that aren't possible in the real world. Yes, his big hammer hit a stone floor and made it ripple; so what?

For the ooze, he smacked it really hard and it temporarily deliquesced and has to spend a move action to literally pull itself together.

And striking a creature the size of a city bus and knocking it on its size isn't merely unrealistic, it's awesome. It's epic. Because when you're level 24, that's how you roll.

Beowulf wrestled Grendel bare-assed, then cut Grendel's mother's head off with a greatsword. Then he fought a frickin' dragon single-handed and cut it in half with a dagger. That's epic. When you're epic, you do impossible .

 

[JiffyPopTart]

Two comparisons (one real, one mythical) to support being able to shift/push/pull/prone colossal beasts.

1. Hercules=demigod. Hercules was able to do some crazy stuff, like reroute rivers. Hercules could probably move a terrasque 5 feet if he had to.

2. A bee is less than 1/100th my body mass. I am taller to a bee than a terrasque is to a PC. If I happen to step on a bee with my bare feet (and I am assuming the terrasque does not wear shoes) I usually shift a square or two as a result. Thus, I could possibly (with hundreds of thousands of melee kills under my belt and demigod status) shift/push/pull/prone a terrasque.

All of which is kinda pointless, because the terrasque is just gonna stand back up on his turn and bite my head off anyway.

DS

 

[Korgoth]

Once you start doing this, you will find that you're whacking various classes very heavily with the nerf bat.

Remember, being prone is not a major deal anymore. -2 to attack, and I believe standing does not provoke. Big deal.

I'm not sure you're being consistent here. If it's not a big deal, then obviously it's not a "very heavy" whack with the nerf bat to disallow it. In fact, the fact that it's not a big deal suggests that there's absolutely no problem with disallowing it.

 

[almagest]

I'm not sure you're being consistent here. If it's not a big deal, then obviously it's not a "very heavy" whack with the nerf bat to disallow it. In fact, the fact that it's not a big deal suggests that there's absolutely no problem with disallowing it.

There's no problem allowing it either.

Seriously though. A character who's practically a god should be able to do just about anything. That's the point.

 

[Sanzuo]

It's already over.

Agreeing here. I realize I have to suspend my disbelief sometimes because of the incredibly anime sh*t that goes on in this new edition. Pimpslapping a dragon to the ground seems like something a 20th level character should be able to do.