Knowledge (Local)

For what it's worth.

Living Greyhawk Campaign Sourcebook said:
Knowledge (local): In the LIVING GREYHAWK campaign this skill needs some further specialization due to its regional nature. When you take ranks in Knowledge (local) you must pick a subset. The subsets choices are: Core; Sheldomar Valley MR; Velverdyva MR; Iuz Border States MR; Nyrond & Environ MR; and Splintered Suns MR. While in Keoland, use Knowledge: (local [Sheldomar Valley MR]) for any checks required during the event. All regional and metaregional events use the metaregion knowledge for the metaregion they belong to. All core events use Knowledge (local [Core]) regardless of where they are set. If you do not have ranks in the needed subset, you cannot make a trained Knowledge (local) check.

I think the RPGA hit on a good interpretation of how Knowledge (Local) was intended to be played. By RAW, however, you should be able to just put ranks into Knowledge (Local) and it will apply everywhere, regardless.

Cite: Living Greyhawk Campaign Sourcebook
 

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Some people want skills to be separated from each other, like forming a "partition", but there is no fundamental reason why they should not overlap, and there are examples in published books about using one skill or another to do exactly the same thing.

I agree. I think it's natural to think of one skill covering one topic and it being the only skill to cover that topic.

But, I've noticed a lot of overlap here and there with the d20 skill system. I've got no problem with one character using Craft (Weaponsmith), another character using Appraise, and a third character using Knowledge (History), all to make the single check to find out if any of the three characters recognize the famous lost sword of the kings.





If you think in your game a PC is penalized for having chosen a weak skill, go ahead and make it more useful in the way you prefer.

That goes without saying.

I started the thread, though, to clarify what was intended by RAW.

See the bottom of the OP.





EDIT:

My personal take on the subject has always been to just try to put more occasions in the story for using neglected skills, or alternatively to come up with additional permanent uses to the narrowest skills.

But, that doesn't work in all situations. The reason I started thinking about Knowledge (Local) is that, for the first time in our campaign, my Barbarians may venture far from their clan territories.

I can't do what you say--put more occasions in the game to use Knowledge (Local)--because the characters won't be in the area covered by the skill (their clan territories). Heck, they're not even going to be in the same kingdom anymore.

Thus, the skill (if used narrowly as suggested by the Greyhawk quote above) becomes wasted skill points.

If your PC party travels a lot, then the skill becomes weak and near useless.

If you use a broad defintion of the skill, then it's a useful skill that can provide the players some information.
 
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another option (I agree with you that it should be broad as I outlined above) is to say that the Ranks you put into a skill is your knowledge of local things. when you move to another area you continue to put ranks in Knowledge (Local) but you take a penalty on the check equal to the number of ranks you have in different areas, but only for a few weeks by then you have learnt about the new area and can use ALL your ranks freely...

I prefer to just assume that when arriving in a new area the character brushes up on their knowledge of the area
 

Water Bob said:
That goes without saying.

I started the thread, though, to clarify what was intended by RAW.

Here's my interpretation of the RAW.

Knowledge (Local) covers "legends, personalities, inhabitants, laws, customs, traditions, and humanoids." This tells us a few things:
  • Knowledge (Local) covers identification of all humanoids, whether it's humans from your own clan, goblins from across the river, elves from over the mountains, or whatever else.
  • Things like legends, traditions, and customs are generally shared throughout a culture, so to use your Hyborian example, even if you have several clans of Cimmerians spread out over a wide area, you can expect them to share the same general culture.
  • When you have different nations, you have international laws, trade agreements, and the like, so if you have one skill to cover law you'd necessarily have to know about the laws of many different areas.

Thus, I've always interpreted the "Local" in Knowledge (Local) to refer to the scope of the skill--focusing on the differences and similarities between nations and cultures rather than large-scale skills like Knowledge (Geography), which represents knowledge of all sorts of terrain and climate, or Knowledge (History), which represents knowledge of the several thousand years of history of a given world--rather than referring to the locality of a particular region.
 

Knowledge (Local) is a very poorly thought out skill.

Interpretted in a narrow way, you'd need to have Knowledge (Far), Knowledge (Near), Knowledge (There), etc.

This would render the skill mostly useful for NPC's.

Interpretted broadly though, it appears to overlap with too many other sorts of Knowledge. You can learn something about history, law, geography, nobility, genology, heraldry etc. from it. So now instead of a nerfed skill, it's an uber skill. Or you get in to DM's being nit picky and punishing themselves by having the PC's throw multiple dice to resolve the same narrow field of knowledge which is no fun for anyone.

Worse yet, the skill itself seems to want to try to cover both mutually exclusive concepts: the local who has been living somewhere his whole life and thus who has a lot of specialized knowledge of a region AND the Indiana Jones style traveller who has experiences and contacts everywhere. In other words, the system itself doesn't seem to know who to give the skill to. Does having knowledge (local) imply you are well travelled? If it does, what do you do for the guy who isn't well travelled, but knows everything about the local region?

I dropped Knowledge (Local) in my home brew along with the equally ill-defined Profession skill. The concept of having regional specific knowledge was moved out to a feat 'Local', that gave you a bonus to a variaty of skills (disguise yourself as a local, no penalties to speak language if hearing the local dialect, survival, diplomacy, etc.) provided you were in that region.

Prior discussion:
http://www.enworld.org/forum/d-d-legacy-discussion/309893-knowledge-local.html#post5650652
 
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another option (I agree with you that it should be broad as I outlined above) is to say that the Ranks you put into a skill is your knowledge of local things. when you move to another area you continue to put ranks in Knowledge (Local) but you take a penalty on the check equal to the number of ranks you have in different areas, but only for a few weeks by then you have learnt about the new area and can use ALL your ranks freely...


To me, that's seems a bit confusing and possibly requires record keeping when, instead, all we need to do is change the DC.

To continue to use the Hyborian example: Barbarians may need a DC 5, 10, or 15 to know something about their own clan, clan territories, or surrounding area. Move the DC up the least likely it is that the Barbarian will know a particular detail.

For example, knowing something about a rival clan may just mean normal DC +5. Knowing something on the other side of the kingdom may mean normal DC +10.

Knowing something about the Vanir, Aesir, Hyperboreans, Border Kingdom, Nemedians, Aquilonians, or Picts (all border Cimmeria), the DC is even higher.

And, so on.

But, the GM needs to use common sense, too. The great Ice Worms of Nordheim are so infamous that many adventurers know of them, far and wide. Thus, the GM would not give such a high DC on the check as he would for some other, less well known, detail.







Knowledge (Local) covers identification of all humanoids, whether it's humans from your own clan, goblins from across the river, elves from over the mountains, or whatever else.

This doesn't quite wash with me. For example, how many stories and scenarios have you read where the main character comes to a new village and the villagers are scared of "the dark menace from the hills". At the slightest menion, the villagers know of the menace, but the heroes know nothing at first and try to find out more info.


Things like legends, traditions, and customs are generally shared throughout a culture, so to use your Hyborian example, even if you have several clans of Cimmerians spread out over a wide area, you can expect them to share the same general culture.

Sure, but what about outside that area of influence. All the Cimmerians have a shared culture. I can buy that. And, the Nordheimers and Picts, also barbaric cultures, probably share some things in common, though there are a lot of differences too. But, go wider. The farther you get from Cimmeria, the less true it is what you posit. Cimmerian culture vs. Aquilonian culture. Cimmerian culture vs. Khitian culture. Cimmerian culture vs. Turanian culture. Cimmerian culture vs. Stygian culture.

And so on.




Thus, I've always interpreted the "Local" in Knowledge (Local) to refer to the scope of the skill--focusing on the differences and similarities between nations and cultures rather than large-scale skills like Knowledge (Geography), which represents knowledge of all sorts of terrain and climate, or Knowledge (History), which represents knowledge of the several thousand years of history of a given world--rather than referring to the locality of a particular region.

But, in my Core Rulebook (Conan RPG--which may be different than the D&D version), it specifically states that the skill covers legends, personalities, inhabitants, laws, customs, and traditions--and can, in fact, be used in place of Knowlege Geography, History, Nature, Nobility & Royalty, Religion, or Rumors.

I should note, though, that the 2E Conan rulebook's (the 3.5 version) description indicates a narrow look at the skill--that it should be taken, over and over, for different locales.
 

One question.

Are barbarians in your game able to read? Because "Knowledge represents a study of some body of lore, possibly an academic or even scientific discipline."

If they never studied how could they have ranks in knowledge in the first place?
 


If they never studied how could they have ranks in knowledge in the first place?

No, they're illiterate.

In fact, they think that writing is a form of sorcerery (it's amazing to them that people can communicate such detailed ideas with just marks--it must be sorcerery!), and they shun it.

But that doesn't mean that the traveler who came to trade for their steel didn't bring with him some interesting bit of info from afar. Or that, as the Barbarian PCs lived their lives, that, sitting around the campfire, stories were not told. Or even that individuals of other races (Aesir, Hyperboreans, a traveler from the Border Kingdom, Aquilionans) couldn't find their way through the clan's territory at one time or another.
 


I can see the barbarian knowing things because he heard them in a song; that is part of his childhood, and that is the reason he knows his tribe's lore. (general knowledge DC 10)

I can't see how a barbarian could study using "oral tradition" - randomly finding the right ppl who know what you want to learn is way harder than reading a book. Also I fail to see how a barbarian could have "academic or even scientific discipline".
 

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