Known Spells and Un-Knowing Them

[DMFTodd]

Can a Bard or Sorceror un-know a spell they Know and replace it with something else?

Example: A first level Bard takes cure light. Once he gets second level spells he takes Cure Moderate. He decides he doesn't need the Cure Light anymore and wants to replace that Known spell with something else, Cause Fear we'll say. Is that allowed?

 

[Crothian]

Not by the rules, no.

 

[Crothian]

Double Post

 

[mikebr99]

Not by the rules, no.

I'll second this... It's the price you pay for having so many spells to cast.

There are feats to add new spells to your known list, but not replace existing ones.

The Bard and Sorcerer really have to weigh the spells that are going to be good at low levels (and keep them alive) but not so good later on.

 

[(Psi)SeveredHead]

Check out the Mind's Eye. They've got two cool feats; Chain Link and Upgrade Power. Maybe your DM will let you use them for these classes.

Also, Sean K Reynolds has a spell path system on his website.

 

[MeanGenes]

Yes there is a way...

Get yourself level drained until you lose the known spell. Then when you gain another level, you can add a different known spell. Otherwise, I guess you'd need a wish.

 

[mikebr99]

Re: Yes there is a way...

Get yourself level drained until you lose the known spell. Then when you gain another level, you can add a different known spell. Otherwise, I guess you'd need a wish.

I don't think you loose the knowledge of the spell... just the ability to cast it.

 

[Spatzimaus]

By the core rules, like they say, no you can't un-know a spell/power.

But, IMC I allow "upgrades" for free, but the DM has to agree that the spell is clearly an upgrade. Same school, same damage type, same save type, and so on.
For example, if you took Change Self, you couldn't upgrade to Alter Self (even though Alter Self's short description compares the two) since Change Self is a glamer and Alter is a transmutation. However, you COULD upgrade Alter to Polymorph Self, freeing up a 2nd-level known slot.
See, the problem with saying "no upgrades!" is that if your campaign doesn't start at first level your characters turn out completely different. A first-level Sorcerer might take Mage Armor, but want to drop it once he gets high enough to get Bracers of Armor. You could require a Feat to let people upgrade, but it's still unbalanced. If you create a level 15 Sorcerer it's easy to say "oh, I never would have taken that spell in the first place" to get out of taking the Feat, but it looks a lot different when you're low-level.

I also allow a Sorcerer to "know" a metamagicked spell if he has the correct metamagic Feat. So, I could use a 5th-level slot to know Empowered Fireball to get around the longer casting time (but it's still a 3rd-level for purposes of save DC, etc., and it doesn't allow you to cast without that metamagic) These, of course, would count as an "upgrade" so you could un-know the basic Fireball.

 

[AuraSeer]

The rules don't offer any way to swap out bard/sorcerer spells. Once you get to epic levels, you can take the epic feat Spell Knowledge to gain more spells, but it doesn't make you forget anything you already know.

That said, it seems that many DMs will allow a bit of flexibility at high levels. There was a thread on this same question recently, where several people posted house rules that allow sorcerers to change out spells by spending XP. Some let Wish do this, others require a special ritual, but it's the loss of XP that prevents the trade from becoming unbalancing.

 

[tarkin]

Actually, They do have rules allowing this.

I have to disagree, WOTC has given a clear example of a Sorceror changing her spells.

They have very specifically mentioned in the Forgotten Realms book that the Simbul uses the spell Wish to forget a known spell allowing her to replace it with a new one of her choice.

It seems to me that the 5,000 xp penalty is more than enough of a cost.

Also, there is a a feat that lets you learn an extra spell of one level less than the highest level you can cast.

As for losing a level, you do in fact "forget" the spells if you lose the level permentantly. Note, if you use magic to restore a level, you get the same spells back, but if you instead earn new experience to regain the level, you can pick any spell you want when you go up a level. Remember then it is not regaining a level, but instead earning a new level.