'Known World' - OD&D

[Insight]

Thanks for the replies! I wish I had collected all that stuff back then. After running B2, B3, and B4 once or twice, and X2 once or twice, I quickly moved onto AD&D and forgot all about the Basic and Expert modules. Sounds like there was quite a bit more support for that setting than I had imagined. Good to know.

 

[rogueattorney]

The reason you see a lot of anger directed towards the boxed sets is mostly because of two things that aren't really related: 1) The conversion to 2e felt like a betrayal to a lot of the loyalists, 2) the timeline was moved forward. Argue whether or not these design decisions were worth making, but don't impugn the Kingdom of Adventure and Kingdom of Magic boxed sets. If basic settings were produced like that today, people would laud them as some of the best things available for D20.

As for #1, it wasn't so much that they converted to 2e, but they did a botched job of it. The Known World had been a campaign setting for 13 years when they made the conversion. It had grown considerably more complex since its inception. It may have originally been a simplistic setting, but it had grown up with its fans. So much so that when TSR decided to re-introduce D&D as the 'kiddie' intro to the game with the 1991 boxed set, they felt like they needed a different campaign setting for new players - Thunder Rift. Thus Mystara had become the 'grown ups' D&D setting. When they moved it over to 2e, they turned it into the introductory 'kiddie' setting. There was no consistency in tone from the last D&D products in 1993 to the first 2e products in 1994. Compare the last Poor Wizards Almanac to the first (and only) Joshuan's Almanac for a good example.

As for #2, they did and didn't advance the time line. Or maybe I should say, they advanced the timeline in a clumsy, inconsistant, and ham-fisted manor that seemed to have more to do with making the setting more appropriate for 2e campaigns than using any real creativity.

The Karameikos of the Gazetteer was a new nation split across racial and religious lines, fractured by numerous factions all vying to plunge the nation into chaos and then arrange pick the pieces as they saw fit. The Karameikos of the boxed set was a strong, unified nation - decidedly less interesting. Further, there was no explanation for what made the change. Did the Thyatians and Traladarans suddenly stop hating one another? Did the schism in the Karameikan Church just go away? What about all those refugees from Alfhiem? Are there no problems at all incorporating them into the country? Apparently Stephan crowned himself King, and everybody decided to love one another.

The changes in Glantri were even worse. The emergence of the joke character Prince Kol (formerly King Kol, ha, ha) at the expense of Thar was awful. The change in law to allow Clerics into the country seemed to be an utter cop-out to make the setting more generic. And another utter cop-out was the switch of the Nucleus of the Spheres - "now it drains Entropy" - whatever the heck that's supposed to mean.

And don't even get me started on the changes made to the Red Steel campaign setting from the Princess Ark articles. Ugh!!!

But beyond even these changes... The maps were just plain awful. Nearly unreadable. The content that they didn't change was often copied word-for-word from the previous Gaz, even when it didn't make any sense. For example, the description of the Duke Stephan's sons had them as essentially the same characters even though they were now in their 30's whereas they'd been in their teens in the previous product.

No, it's not that they converted to 2e and advanced the time line. It's that TSR did an excessively poor job of it. They marketed to a completely different fan base than those who were already buying the setting, so they lost their loyal customers and failed to gain any new ones, as evidenced by the discontinuation of the setting after less than 2 years and only about a half-dozen products. Don't be fooled by the big, shiny boxes. The original Gazetteers were far, far superior products.

R.A.

 

[Estlor]

As the others have stated, the B series was repackaged later in its life as a single book and set to run as a big mega-adventure. Because of that, most of them can be placed in or around Karameikos and its immediate neighbors (Ylaruam, Darokin, and Glantri... even though Glantri is more of a neighbor to Darokin).

The X series are all directly Known World specific, taking you to places like an island to the south, the forested regions to the extreme north (Saga of the Shadowlord in Wendar and Denegoth), and along the region between the Known World and the Savage Coast. Hule (The Desert Nomads adventures) is sort of northwest of Glantri, more west than north. The Plain of Fire lies between the two (which Hule claims, but is actually more controlled by the gnolls and elves of Graakhalia). The Master is a great villain, perhaps one of the best in the Know World. Most of the other villains were pretty campy or somewhat silly, but The Master is straight up wicked. He uses religion as a crutch to keep the people following him (since he IS the head of the Chuch of Bozdogan - i.e. Loki - in the Known World). That and he also managed to remain 100% undefined with no statistics through years of products. Not even Wulf Von Klangendorf, leader of the Knights of Vanya (who, if you run a Thyatian-centric campaign, is a major villain), can say that.

 

[Estlor]

No, it's not that they converted to 2e and advanced the time line. It's that TSR did an excessively poor job of it. They marketed to a completely different fan base than those who were already buying the setting, so they lost their loyal customers and failed to gain any new ones, as evidenced by the discontinuation of the setting after less than 2 years and only about a half-dozen products. Don't be fooled by the big, shiny boxes. The original Gazetteers were far, far superior products.

I believe it was Bruce Heard (though I might be wrong) that was said they wanted to do some dramatic things with the setting - have the Patriarch of the Church of Karameikos die and plunge the nation into the middle of the religious war, but the suits at TSR told them to leave everything exactly the way it was, just set the calendar forward a few years. They wanted to get the entire setting ported over before doing anything drastic with it.

All this makes me want to go back to working on my hack-job translation of Mystara into 3(.5)e. I was doing it all myself for my own campaign and I got a bit bogged down after doing races and prestige classes. Then my group imploded and we rebuilt into a FR group so my reason to keep working was gone...

(And yes, I know there was a group working on it for 3e. I never liked big group projects; you always spent more time debating than designing. Stifled my creativity. Of course, that's not to say their work wasn't better than mine, we just had different goals.)

 

[Graywolf-ELM]

Unfortunately, they never got around to putting out GAZ10- Orcs of Thar

Yes they did, I'm running a game right now using that setting. My link below is to the Story Hour of that game.

GW

 

[rogueattorney]

As the others have stated, the B series was repackaged later in its life as a single book and set to run as a big mega-adventure. Because of that, most of them can be placed in or around Karameikos and its immediate neighbors (Ylaruam, Darokin, and Glantri... even though Glantri is more of a neighbor to Darokin).

I've often said that the B1-9 compilation is like a greatest hits CD for your favorite band that doesn't have your favorite songs, and the songs they do have are crappy live versions or re-mixes.

B1 is not included except for some maps. No room descriptions, background, nothing.
B2, The Keep on the Borderland, is missing the KEEP!
B4, The Lost City, is missing THE LOST CITY, as well as the lower half of the pyramid.
B5, The Horror on the Hill, is missing THE HILL and the THE HORROR, and only contains an old abbey filled with hobgoblins.
B6 doesn't have any of the cardboard punchouts that were the only things that made this adventure worth-while in the first place.
B8 doesn't have 2/3 of the wilderness areas of the original.
B9 is missing 2 of the 5 mini-adventures.

The only ones included in their entirety are B3 and B7 (and B6 if you don't mind not having the city cut-outs, which were to my mind, the big attraction to that module in the first place.) All the other adventures were hacked in a pretty major way. The overall campaign connectors is nothing special at all, and nothing any DM trying connect adventures that don't have anything to do with one another can't come up with on his own. Further, B3, B7,and B8 really don't fit well with the established Karameikan setting (heck, B3 was originally set in Glantri and fits MUCH better there). Further, there is so much here, your characters will likely have surpassed the level recomendations before even getting half-way through, necessitating you re-statting everything (which might not be that big a deal if you're already converting to 3e anyway).

Adding in the price of finding a hard copy of the thing (~$30), you are probably much better off getting B1, B2, B3, B4, B5, and B7 individually and calling it a day.

R.A.

 

[Insight]

Adding in the price of finding a hard copy of the thing (~$30), you are probably much better off getting B1, B2, B3, B4, B5, and B7 individually and calling it a day.

That's basically what I've been doing. eBay seems to be the best place to come up with them cheap. If anyone else knows a good place to score these old modules in good condition, I'd like to know.

 

[kengar]

That's basically what I've been doing. eBay seems to be the best place to come up with them cheap. If anyone else knows a good place to score these old modules in good condition, I'd like to know.

www.nobleknight.com

www.hitpointe.com

 

[johnsemlak]

I've often said that the B1-9 compilation is like a greatest hits CD for your favorite band that doesn't have your favorite songs, and the songs they do have are crappy live versions or re-mixes.

B1 is not included except for some maps. No room descriptions, background, nothing.
B2, The Keep on the Borderland, is missing the KEEP!
B4, The Lost City, is missing THE LOST CITY, as well as the lower half of the pyramid.
B5, The Horror on the Hill, is missing THE HILL and the THE HORROR, and only contains an old abbey filled with hobgoblins.
B6 doesn't have any of the cardboard punchouts that were the only things that made this adventure worth-while in the first place.
B8 doesn't have 2/3 of the wilderness areas of the original.
B9 is missing 2 of the 5 mini-adventures.

The only ones included in their entirety are B3 and B7 (and B6 if you don't mind not having the city cut-outs, which were to my mind, the big attraction to that module in the first place.) All the other adventures were hacked in a pretty major way. The overall campaign connectors is nothing special at all, and nothing any DM trying connect adventures that don't have anything to do with one another can't come up with on his own. Further, B3, B7,and B8 really don't fit well with the established Karameikan setting (heck, B3 was originally set in Glantri and fits MUCH better there). Further, there is so much here, your characters will likely have surpassed the level recomendations before even getting half-way through, necessitating you re-statting everything (which might not be that big a deal if you're already converting to 3e anyway).

Adding in the price of finding a hard copy of the thing (~$30), you are probably much better off getting B1, B2, B3, B4, B5, and B7 individually and calling it a day.

R.A.

Thanks for the summary of what B1-9 has and doens't have. I only ever had copies of B1-4 before I got the B1-9 compilation. I'll definitely go about picking up B5 and B7. Are B8-9 worth looking for as well?

 

[Whizbang Dustyboots]

There was no consistency in tone from the last D&D products in 1993 to the first 2e products in 1994. Compare the last Poor Wizards Almanac to the first (and only) Joshuan's Almanac for a good example.

That's a fairly misleading example, as the PWAs were incredibly dry. I won't defend Joshuan's Almanac, but let's compare its tone to something fairly similar -- the Orcs of Thar GAZ, maybe? There had always been Known World material that was light-hearted, like the Kingdom of Ierendi GAZ, which featured a Magnum, P.I. homage, among the many, many, many silly elements in that setting.

The Karameikos of the Gazetteer was a new nation split across racial and religious lines, fractured by numerous factions all vying to plunge the nation into chaos and then arrange pick the pieces as they saw fit. The Karameikos of the boxed set was a strong, unified nation - decidedly less interesting. Further, there was no explanation for what made the change. Did the Thyatians and Traladarans suddenly stop hating one another? Did the schism in the Karameikan Church just go away? What about all those refugees from Alfhiem? Are there no problems at all incorporating them into the country? Apparently Stephan crowned himself King, and everybody decided to love one another.

I have to say, it sounds like you didn't read the boxed set, just heard second-hand reports. I own the boxed set and have used it to run a campaign, and the racial tension is absolutely present.

The changes in Glantri were even worse. The emergence of the joke character Prince Kol (formerly King Kol, ha, ha) at the expense of Thar was awful.

Predates the change to 2e. This is again a complaint that's being lumped in with the 2e conversion incorrectly.

And another utter cop-out was the switch of the Nucleus of the Spheres - "now it drains Entropy" - whatever the heck that's supposed to mean.

Almost certain this changed in Wrath of the Immortals, not in Kingdom of Magic.

And don't even get me started on the changes made to the Red Steel campaign setting from the Princess Ark articles. Ugh!!!

Weren't the changes made by the original author?

They marketed to a completely different fan base than those who were already buying the setting, so they lost their loyal customers and failed to gain any new ones, as evidenced by the discontinuation of the setting after less than 2 years and only about a half-dozen products.

Around the same time that they started discontinuing pretty much everything, as the great ship finally began to sink?

Don't be fooled by the big, shiny boxes. The original Gazetteers were far, far superior products.

As I own both the GAZ and the boxed sets, I'm going to have to respectfully disagree.

The boxed sets weren't perfect, but they were quite good products. The problems they had were problems they inherited from the Known World line when it was still a D&D (as opposed to AD&D) line.