KotS Total-Party-Kill!!

[david_annable]

I'm going to go out on a limb and say very few. I ran the encounter properly and read more than a few stories calling specific attention to the 3 round delay. With the suggested setup the encounter is very difficult.

Yeah. We ran it properly. Here's sorta how it went down:

The party succeeded at their perception check and noticed all of the Kobolds outside of the caves. The Rogue, using stealth, moved up and used sneak attack on the single Skirmisher. He rolled a natural 20 and managed to do exactly 27 points of damage with his crit (he must have been using one of his powers). The rest of the party advanced and within a few short rounds, managed to dispatch all of them minions and the dragonshield. Unfortunately, the rogue was not as lucky at dispatching the Kobold Slinger who, seeing how efficiently the party was slaughtering his friends, did what the module said he'd do - fled into the cave and warned the rest. The Slinger can easily get through the waterfall and into the caves in a single turn and didn't even take an opportunity attack from the Rogue because of his Shifty ability.

So the Kobolds inside the cave were aware of the party when they advanced.

Now, I'm not sure if the idea was to let the party have a short rest between the outside and the inside encounters but it didn't matter much as it wasn't even suggested by my players.

So they went into the caves having depleted at least some of their resources. They'd also just come off of the 2nd ambush, but at least they'd chosen to have a short rest after that.

Once they got into the caves, the minions died readily and I really thought they'd do okay. But then Irontooth showed up with is pals. One by one, the PCs began to fall. Maybe 6 rounds later, they were all dead.

 

[BlackSeven]

I was perhaps a bit easy on my PCs. Having read through the module,and this site as well, I was aware that this encounter was going to be rough. Since, for me, this run was an intro to 4e and not a campaign, I took small liberties, warning them about the changes that 4e had wrought, as well as encouraging them to get to know each other's abilities beforehand.

What this did was to give them the impression that teamwork would be vital. That, I believe, is what made the difference, Also, dropping Irontooth's name early on helped.

Outside the lair, they noticed the kobolds beforehand, and the paladin went straight for the circle, making a ruckus to get attention. He brought the cleric with him, who stayed in the woods for cover, and to get less attention. While this was happening, the rogue, warlord and wizard snuck around, the rogue took out the skirmisher in one hit, and they went for the slinger. When the slinger made his move to run, I did what the book recommended and had him say "Irontooth must be warned." The three who were on his end went all out to take him out, but also knew now that Irontooth was in that cave.

They mopped up the outside crew with the inside none the wiser, taking a short rest outside to prepare for the big fight. They also played the inside very well, with the rogue stealthing in to scout the place, and waiting for Irontooth to make his move before coming out, and using her abilities well to move Irontooth into the midts of the party. They knocked him down fast.

My point here is that the teamwork, the preparation, and having an idea of what was ahead of them made a huge difference.

Of course, they also rolled fairly well, and had both the cleric and the warlord (no one wanted the fighter). I still expect hard times for them later on in the module.

 

[Blackeagle]

Now, I'm not sure if the idea was to let the party have a short rest between the outside and the inside encounters but it didn't matter much as it wasn't even suggested by my players.

This, I think, is the critical point. So many of 4e's powers are encounter based that going into any fight without having taken a short rest is a bad idea. Going into a fight as hard as this one without your full complement of encounter powers and second winds is downright suicidal. People have emphasized teamwork and the like, but I think one of the simpler adaptions to 4e is going to be "short rest at every opportunity".

I wonder how many of the TPKs on this module are people who didn't short rest between the outside and inside fights?

 

[Phoenix8008]

This, I think, is the critical point. So many of 4e's powers are encounter based that going into any fight without having taken a short rest is a bad idea. Going into a fight as hard as this one without your full complement of encounter powers and second winds is downright suicidal. People have emphasized teamwork and the like, but I think one of the simpler adaptions to 4e is going to be "short rest at every opportunity".

I wonder how many of the TPKs on this module are people who didn't short rest between the outside and inside fights?

QFT

Most of the time I think I'll just assume as a DM that the party takes a short rest between each fight if there is a chance for it. Did they collect the treasure and loot the bodies? Then they had enough time to spare that their Encounter powers have reloaded and are ready for use again. Unless it's a running fight, or you never stop running in initiative order, then most of the time they should have time to take a short rest whether they specifically ask for one or not. Of course, this may all be part of the learning curve and people WILL start making sure that they take short rests between fights when they realize that they get mauled otherwise.

 

[Korgoth]

Also, if one were to break out Moldvay D&D and run Keep on the Borderlands, I think you would see lots and lots of character death in that one, too. That was a 1st level module that had, among other things, a 6 HD minotaur.

I think that Mearls probably wrote with the expectation that KoTS would generate a fair amount of character death and a certain percentage of TPKs, especially for those not bringing (or not having developed) their A game.

And that's one of the important functions of an introductory module: to help you develop your A game. Because pulling punches until 4th or 5th level and then giving you the shock and awe is no good. Much better to get those TPKs out of the way up front!

 

[Nifft]

Also, if one were to break out Moldvay D&D and run Keep on the Borderlands, I think you would see lots and lots of character death in that one, too. That was a 1st level module that had, among other things, a 6 HD minotaur.

Sure, but that was (a) a different era, when you were supposed to have some disposable henchmen, and (b) after the rules for new character generation were available.

Cheers, -- N

 

[FitzTheRuke]

My group had a TPK, but no one was actually dead at the end of it (all unconscious) so I decided to have them captured and will run a prison break next week from the cells in Area 2 inside the keep. (Irontooth sends them to the keep.)

For the record:

My players had good tactics, they didn't let the inside get warned (they killed any kobold running for the lair) and they HAD a short rest before venturing in. They STILL got creamed. To be fair, they were very close (there was 1 dragonshield, the wyrmpriest, and Irontooth (at 7 HP) when the last of 'em went down.) and they'd rolled pretty badly the last few rounds.

Personally I think the encounter is very very tough, but I don't see how that makes it badly designed, and I think anyone who BEATS it and still complains about how tough it is, is being a bit of a whiner, no offence meant.

My players enjoyed it, anyway, even if they lost.

Fitz

 

[Nifft]

I think anyone who BEATS it and still complains about how tough it is, is being a bit of a whiner, no offence meant.

None taken. But it's a strange stance you take. Should those who lost be "allowed" to complain?

-- N

 

[drjones]

None taken. But it's a strange stance you take. Should those who lost be "allowed" to complain?

No but it is a bit like a political candidate saying "We won the election but only by 2000 votes, my opponent was obviously cheating" A little unsportsmanlike.

 

[hectorse]

Also, if one were to break out Moldvay D&D and run Keep on the Borderlands, I think you would see lots and lots of character death in that one, too. That was a 1st level module that had, among other things, a 6 HD minotaur.

I think that Mearls probably wrote with the expectation that KoTS would generate a fair amount of character death and a certain percentage of TPKs, especially for those not bringing (or not having developed) their A game.

And that's one of the important functions of an introductory module: to help you develop your A game. Because pulling punches until 4th or 5th level and then giving you the shock and awe is no good. Much better to get those TPKs out of the way up front!

I think I agree with this

As an introductory adventure, it may teach both players and DM's alike that the game is not necessarily easy.

I seriously believe it's a kick in the groin to all those 4ed whiners that thought Short Rests and 6 hour cure everything rests were going to make the game easier