Kraken Variants
- Thread starter Cleon
- Start date
freyar
Extradimensional Explorer
The updated working draft is good, and I'd be up to include Expert Grappler as well. For Shipcrusher, we could just say that each tentacle does damage as normal.
Make the ink a contact poison with initial damage a disease and secondary damage death? That seems to be the closest thing we can do to the original. Maybe slimy doom for the disease?
Make the ink a contact poison with initial damage a disease and secondary damage death? That seems to be the closest thing we can do to the original. Maybe slimy doom for the disease?
Cleon
Hero
Well I guess we gave all the other Krakens expert grappler, although it seems a bit superfluous once their Grapple modifier gets above +60!
Well it does make it easier for the beast to move and attack while grappling, so I'd be game for adding it in.
The vague tentacle information in the original monster is similar to a regular Kraken, so it could just as easily use regular grappling like the SRD version or my Cleon Special™ Giant Squid Redux.
So shall I add in Expert Grappler or not?
Having it do two lots of tentacle constrict damage plus eight lots of arm damage seems a bit excessive. An SRD Kraken would do 4d8+6d6+60 if it could constrict with all its limbs simultaneously - although that's not as bad as the SRD Giant Squid who's tentacles are all Primary Attacks, so all ten together are 10d6+80!
So I'd rather it have the Shipcrusher SQ.
Hmm, upon reflection maybe the Mystaran Kraken's Shipcrusher ability is a little weak. It was based on the custom Constrict of my Giant Squid Redux, but that giant squid's limbs have base limb damage of 1d6 not the 6d6 of the Epic-Colossal Mystaran version. Is 15d6+21 enough for it crushing a vessel with all ten limbs? Maybe it should be "increases by 2d6 for each additional tentacle" instead (for max constrict 24d6+21) or even higher like +3d6 per extra tentacle (max constrict 33d6+21) or even +6d6 (max constrict 60d6+21)?
Come to think of it, we should decide what damage the tentacles and arms do normally first! And the bite while we're at it!
Comparing the Awnshegh's 2E version to a regular 2E Kraken its attacks all do more damage:
Tentacle: 1d10+10 (average 15.5) vs 3d6 (average 10.5)[+47.619%]
Arm: 2d8 (average 9) vs 2d6 (average 7)[+28.857%]
Bite: 10d4 (average 25) vs 7d4 (average 17.5)[+42.857%]
On average is does about four-tenth more damage [+39.683%].
Hmm, a regular Kraken does 2d8+12 with its tentacles, 1d6+6 with its arms and 4d6+6 with its bite.
Increasing one to Colossal size with the standard +8 Strength factored in would increase that to 3d8+16 tentacles, 1d8+8 arms and 6d6+8 bite.
The Awnshegh has a +18 Strength bonus instead of a standard Colossal Kraken's +16, so if nothing else changed it'd have 3d8+18 tentacles, 1d8+9 arms and 6d6+9 bite.
So in terms of average damage % percentage wise, that's:
| Attack | Kraken | Colossal.Krak | Awnshegh | A.vs.Krak | A.vs.Crak |
| Tentacle | 21 | 29.5 | 31.5 | 150% | 106.779% |
| Arm | 9.5 | 12.5 | 13.5 | 142.105% | 108% |
| Bite | 20 | 29 | 30 | 150% | 103.448% |
| Increase | +47.368% | +6.076% |
Remember that the "increase" is just the percentage boost of a single hit by one of the three attacks and does not match the overall overall damage output. Since a Kraken has two tentacles and six arms but only one bite, a 6-point increase in arm damage will increase the total average damage by 36, but only 12 for tentacle damage or 6 for bite damage.
Anyhow, so simply upscaling a regular Kraken and giving it the Awnshegh's Strength gives it a 47% increase.
That seems in the right ballpark if we're aiming for 40%.
That said, I'm not that much in favour of the way the Colossal Kraken has an average tentacle damage higher than its bite damage!
So maybe we could tweak the limbs' damage a bit while increasing the bite damage?
How about 2d10 for the tentacles while keeping the arms at 1d8 while upscaling the bite to either 8d6 or 6d8?
That's:
| Attack | Kraken | Awnshegh/Bite.8d6 | /Bite.6d8 | Awn8d6.v.K | Awn6d8.v.K |
| Tentacle | 21 | 29 [2d10+18] | 29 | 138.095% | 138.095% |
| Arm | 9.5 | 13.5 [1d8+9] | 13.5 | 142.105% | 142.105% |
| Bite | 20 | 37 [8d6+9] | 36 | 185% | 180% |
| Average | +55.067% | +53.400% |
Hmm… at first glance that looked a bit high, but then I remembered that the SRD Kraken and the 2E Kraken have VERY different tentacle/bite damage ratios. The SRD is 2d8+12 tentacle vs. 4d6+6 bite (average 21 & 20 or a 1.05 ratio) while 2E is 3d6 vs. 7d4 (10.5 vs 17.5 or a 0.60 ratio) so proportionally the 2E Kraken's bite does 75% more damage (105/60 = 1.75).
So let's do that! I slightly prefer the 8d6 bite but it doesn't really make any difference. One point higher or lower average damage is no big deal when you're doing over 30 points per hit!
So that'd give the Awnshegh:
Full Attack: 2 tentacles +50 melee (2d10+18) and 6 arms +45 melee (1d8+9) and bite +45 melee (8d6+9)
Shipcrusher (Ex): The Kraken can constrict a colossal creature or object with more than one limb. If one or both tentacles are constricting, the constriction damage equals 2d10+27 plus 1d10 for each arm or tentacle that is shipcrushing. If it's only shipcrushing with its arms, the constriction damage equals 2d8+18 plus 1d8 for each arm it is constricting with.
So that's a max of 10d10+27 damage when shipcrushing (2d10+27 plus +8d10 from all eight limbs) and if it uses all six arms it's 8d8+18.
I was tempted to make the arms base damage use the same ten-sided dice as the tentacles in hopes that'd make the Shipcrushing simpler, but decided against it.
Upon reflection, shouldn't this be a Supernatural ability rather than an Extraordinary one since Blood Abilities are manifestation of evil divine power?
Maybe we could borrow some of the mechanics from Mummy Rot?
Slimy Doom is a good model, although presumable the DC will be higher than Doom's 14!
Cleon
Hero
Updating Awnshegh Kraken Working Draft.
I'll whip up a rough draft proposal. Since the original blood ability was called death touch there's an obvious name for it…
Cleon
Hero
Death Cloud (Su): [either "Once every minute" or "Once every 1d4+1 rounds"?], the Kraken can squirt a cloud of jet-black ink over a 120-ft. spread as a [either "free action" or "swift action"?]. The cloud provides total concealment (creatures within the cloud are considered to be in darkness). When the Kraken emits a death cloud, any living creature that contacts the ink must succeed at a DC 37 Fortitude save or take #d# Constitution damage and contract Inky Doom (see below). One minute after contact, the creature must succeed at a second DC 37 Fortitude save or [either "take #d# Constitution damage" or "die"?] from the cloud's supernatural venom.
Inky Doom (Su): Supernatural disease—contact, Fortitude DC 37, incubation period 5 rounds; damage 1d6 Str, 1d6 Con, and 1d6 Cha. [cribbed from Mummy Rot, maybe change the ability damage to Slimy Doom's Con only and increase the incubation period to give the poor saps some chance?]
Unlike normal diseases, inky doom continues until the victim reaches Constitution 0 (and dies) or is cured as described below.
A death cloud is a powerful curse, not a natural disease or poison. [rules for delaying/removing/curing effects].
The save DCs are Charisma-based.
Inky Doom (Su): Supernatural disease—contact, Fortitude DC 37, incubation period 5 rounds; damage 1d6 Str, 1d6 Con, and 1d6 Cha. [cribbed from Mummy Rot, maybe change the ability damage to Slimy Doom's Con only and increase the incubation period to give the poor saps some chance?]
Unlike normal diseases, inky doom continues until the victim reaches Constitution 0 (and dies) or is cured as described below.
A death cloud is a powerful curse, not a natural disease or poison. [rules for delaying/removing/curing effects].
The save DCs are Charisma-based.
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Cleon
Hero
I wondered about having the Kraken use Death Cloud at the same frequency as a Dragon's Breath Weapon rather than once per minute like a standard Kraken's Ink Cloud.
That'd allow it to unleash one at the start of combat and possibly recharge in time for a second cloud to cover its escape (although the original text says it only uses it to cover its escape, I like the idea of it employing Death Cloud offensively).
Also, note there's nothing in the Special Attack that says the cloud has to be underwater - I think we should mention in the tactics that the Kraken sometimes showers a ship's deck with death ink.
The original entry says the ink cloud "dissipates in 2-5 rounds" which might include its lethal effects. However, having to make two to five DC 37 Fort saves to avoid a horrible death seems a bit extreme even for me! Maybe tweak it so each Death Cloud remains potent for 1d4+1 rounds but only the initial exposure requires a saving throw to avoid "infection" by Inky Doom?
That'd allow it to unleash one at the start of combat and possibly recharge in time for a second cloud to cover its escape (although the original text says it only uses it to cover its escape, I like the idea of it employing Death Cloud offensively).
Also, note there's nothing in the Special Attack that says the cloud has to be underwater - I think we should mention in the tactics that the Kraken sometimes showers a ship's deck with death ink.
The original entry says the ink cloud "dissipates in 2-5 rounds" which might include its lethal effects. However, having to make two to five DC 37 Fort saves to avoid a horrible death seems a bit extreme even for me! Maybe tweak it so each Death Cloud remains potent for 1d4+1 rounds but only the initial exposure requires a saving throw to avoid "infection" by Inky Doom?
freyar
Extradimensional Explorer
I like using it every 1d4+1 rounds, and I also like the tweak so that the save is only on initial exposure.
I think I prefer making it a swift action, and 3d6 Con twice ought to be enough damage for the poison, right? Ooh, we could make it drain the second time, unless you really prefer it just kills characters outright.
I'd be ok with limiting the disease to 1d6 Con. And the incubation period sounds like it should be 1 day from the original monster text.
What do you think?
I think I prefer making it a swift action, and 3d6 Con twice ought to be enough damage for the poison, right? Ooh, we could make it drain the second time, unless you really prefer it just kills characters outright.
I'd be ok with limiting the disease to 1d6 Con. And the incubation period sounds like it should be 1 day from the original monster text.
What do you think?
Cleon
Hero
We could have it be more harmful during the initial effect than the secondary effect? Say 3d6 Con damage followed by 1d6 drain? That way roughly 50% of ordinary Con 10 creatures will die on the first round, but roughly 50% of creatures with Con 15+ will survive the extra damage in the second round and then "enjoy" dying of Inky Doom. Assuming they fail both saves, which let's be honest is probable considering it's DC 37.
That said, there is something to be said for having the secondary effect just be "Death" since it is a major divine-blood based lethal ability.
Come to think of it, the original ability had the exposed creatures AUTOMATICALLY contract Inky Doom if they didn't die from the initial exposure. Do we want to have the Inky Doom happen even if they make the initial Fort save?
I'm fine giving Inky Doom the normal 1 day incubation and, upon reflection, perhaps we should reduce the damage from 1d6 Con. The original only did 1d4 hit points of damage per day. Maybe have it do 1 Con drain per day?
Here's a revision with all the above:
Death Cloud (Su): Once every 1d4+1 rounds, the Kraken can squirt a cloud of jet-black ink over a 120-ft. spread as a swift action. The cloud provides total concealment (creatures within the cloud are considered to be in darkness) and is charged with supernatural venom. The first time a living creature contacts this venomous ink they [either "automatically contract Inky Doom (see below) and must succeed at a DC 37 Fortitude save or take 3d6 Constitution damage" or "must succeed at a DC 37 Fortitude save or take 3d6 Constitution damage and contract Inky Doom (see below)"]. One minute after contact, the creature must succeed at a second DC 37 Fortitude save or take 1d8 Constitution damage [or "die"?]. Death cloud ink loses all its lethal effects 1d4+1 rounds after being emitted by the Kraken.
Inky Doom (Su): Supernatural disease—contact, Fortitude DC 37, incubation period 1 day; damage 1 Con drain.
Unlike normal diseases, inky doom continues until the victim reaches Constitution 0 (and dies) or is cured as described below.
A death cloud is a powerful curse, not a natural disease or poison. [rules for delaying/removing/curing inky doom effects].
The save DCs are Charisma-based.
Cleon
Hero
For what it's worth, the original Blood Enemies writeup uses lowercase "the Kraken" but that doesn't seem very special!
freyar
Extradimensional Explorer
Let's capitalize the "The."
I like your revisions for the Death Cloud and Inky Doom. Let's go with your second option in the blue text. I'm also ok with making the secondary damage for the Death Cloud (treating it as a poison) death, as long as we also make it a death effect that can be warded off by appropriate magic.
As for curing Inky Doom, borrow this from Mummy Rot?
"A character attempting to cast any conjuration (healing) spell on a creature afflicted with Inky Doom must succeed on a DC X caster level check, or the spell has no effect on the afflicted character.
To eliminate Inky Doom, the curse must first be broken with break enchantment or remove curse (requiring a DC X caster level check for either spell), after which a caster level check is no longer necessary to cast healing spells on the victim, and the Inky Doom can be magically cured as any normal disease."
I like your revisions for the Death Cloud and Inky Doom. Let's go with your second option in the blue text. I'm also ok with making the secondary damage for the Death Cloud (treating it as a poison) death, as long as we also make it a death effect that can be warded off by appropriate magic.
As for curing Inky Doom, borrow this from Mummy Rot?
"A character attempting to cast any conjuration (healing) spell on a creature afflicted with Inky Doom must succeed on a DC X caster level check, or the spell has no effect on the afflicted character.
To eliminate Inky Doom, the curse must first be broken with break enchantment or remove curse (requiring a DC X caster level check for either spell), after which a caster level check is no longer necessary to cast healing spells on the victim, and the Inky Doom can be magically cured as any normal disease."
Cleon
Hero
I'll get started on That!
Making it a Death Effect is a good idea.
Yes, that's pretty much what I was thinking of doing. We'll need to decide on a DC for the caster level checks but the rest is pretty straightforward. Well, I suppose death ward might be able to eliminate inky doom as well if it's a magical death effect too. I guess we could require a CL check to block the "or die" bit then?
Revision:
Death Cloud (Su): Once every 1d4+1 rounds, The Kraken can squirt a cloud of jet-black ink over a 120-ft. spread as a swift action. The cloud provides total concealment (creatures within the cloud are considered to be in darkness) and is charged with supernatural venom. The first time a living creature contacts this venomous ink they must succeed at a DC 37 Fortitude save or take 3d6 Constitution damage and contract Inky Doom (see below). One minute after contact, the creature must succeed at a second DC 37 Fortitude save or die, although this can be resisted by abilities that protect against magical death effects such as death ward [(requiring a successful DC ## caster level check to prevent death)]. Death cloud ink loses its harmful effects 1d4+1 rounds after being emitted by The Kraken.
Inky Doom (Su): Supernatural disease—contact, Fortitude DC 37, incubation period 1 day; damage 1 Con drain.
Unlike normal diseases, inky doom continues until the victim reaches Constitution 0 (and dies) or is cured as described below.
A death cloud is a powerful curse, not a natural disease or poison. A character attempting to cast any conjuration (healing) spell on a creature afflicted by inky doom must succeed on a DC [20 like a Mummy or increase to 25 or 30?] caster level check, or the spell has no effect on the afflicted character.
To eliminate inky doom, the curse must first be broken with break enchantment, [death ward?] or remove curse (requiring a DC [20, 25 or 30?] caster level check for the spell), after which a caster level check is no longer necessary to cast healing spells on the victim, and the inky doom can be magically cured as any normal disease.
An afflicted creature who dies of inky doom melts into black slime that evaporates into nothing at the first breeze.
The save DCs are Charisma-based.
Cleon
Hero
So rephase "or die, although this can be resisted by abilities that protect against magical death effects such as death ward" to "or die. Death cloud is a magical death effect, its victims will not die from failing the second Fort save if they are protected by death ward or a similar effect."
Do you want to resphase "Death cloud is a powerful curse," to "Inky doom is a slow but powerful death effect," - we should change that "A death cloud" to "Inky doom" anyway.
I am concerned about the high DC of the initial exposure's death effect since the unfortunates who encountered the original monster would have a considerably better chance of surviving. Under 2E AD&D rules even a 0-level sailor has a 75% chance of surviving as their Death Magic is 16+. Our hypothetical sailor would need a +17 Fort save to have any chance of making a DC 37 save, and if they had +18 there's an 81% chance of failing both saves and dying.
I guess we could arbitrarily give the Death Cloud's second Fort save (or both of them) a lower DC, maybe 25 to match the remove DC? That's the equivalent to the DC of an 8th level spell cast by a sorcerer with the Kraken's 24 Charisma, which is still fairly respectable.
That way some of the tougher sailors who encounter The Kraken might survive, since a +5 Fort save isn't impossible for lowish level NPC (a 1st level warrior with Con 16-17 can hit that).
Alternatively, we could have the Death Cloud's secondary effect just do Con damage as well, then the Random Dice Gods will give a chance of survival just by rolling very low. Maybe 1d10 Con for the initial damage and 2d10 Con for the secondary? That's nasty but potentially survivable.
If we do that, we'd need to chance the death effect proviso to, say "Death cloud is a magical death effect and the damage it causes can be prevented or reduced by abilities that resist death effects, such as the death ward spell."
Even more alternatively, we could make it an arbitrary Constitution check rather than a Fortitude saving throw (like Suffocation), so the victim's level is relatively unimportant. A DC 20 Constitution check covers a way wider level spectrum than a DC 20 Fort save.
freyar
Extradimensional Explorer
Let's leave the death effect descriptor out of Inky Doom I guess. We could just change the secondary damage line to "One minute after contact, the creature must succeed at a second DC 37 Fortitude save or die; this is a death effect."
I think I'd probably rather switch to Con damage than change the save DC. (Then we can drop the death effect.) Or we could go with a Con check. I'm certainly ok with reducing the Inky Doom CL check DC. What if we go with 1d10/2d10 Con damage or 1d10 Con drain/2d10 Con damage?
I think I'd probably rather switch to Con damage than change the save DC. (Then we can drop the death effect.) Or we could go with a Con check. I'm certainly ok with reducing the Inky Doom CL check DC. What if we go with 1d10/2d10 Con damage or 1d10 Con drain/2d10 Con damage?
Cleon
Hero
Let's just change the "instant death" then.
Hmm, I quite like the drain/damage option.
I don't recall proposing that in the last few posts, the only mention of the CL DC used the "average value" of 25.
Anyhow, time for a revision!
Death Cloud (Su): Once every 1d4+1 rounds, The Kraken can squirt a cloud of jet-black ink over a 120-ft. spread as a swift action. The cloud provides total concealment (creatures within the cloud are considered to be in darkness) and is charged with supernatural venom. The first time a living creature contacts this venomous ink they must succeed at a DC 37 Fortitude save or take 1d10 Constitution drain and contract Inky Doom (see below). One minute after contact, the creature must succeed at a second DC 37 Fortitude save or take an additional 2d10 Constitution damage. Death cloud ink loses its harmful effects 1d4+1 rounds after being emitted by The Kraken.
Inky Doom (Su): Supernatural disease—contact, Fortitude DC 37, incubation period 1 day; damage 1 Con drain.
Unlike normal diseases, inky doom continues until the victim reaches Constitution 0 (and dies) or is cured as described below.
Inky doom is a powerful curse, not a natural disease or poison. A character attempting to cast any conjuration (healing) spell on a creature afflicted by inky doom must succeed on a DC 25 caster level check, or the spell has no effect on the afflicted character.
To eliminate inky doom, the curse must first be broken with break enchantment, death ward or remove curse (requiring a DC 25 caster level check for the spell), after which a caster level check is no longer necessary to cast healing spells on the victim, and the inky doom can be magically cured as any normal disease.
An afflicted creature who dies of inky doom melts into black slime that evaporates into nothing at the first breeze.
The save DCs are Charisma-based.
Cleon
Hero
I still like the idea of it being a magical death effect as well as or instead of a poison and think we should include it somehow.
Something like adding "Death cloud is a magical death effect not a poison, abilities such as death ward will block all damage from a death cloud if they succeed at a DC 25 caster level check (roll once per cloud)."
Something like adding "Death cloud is a magical death effect not a poison, abilities such as death ward will block all damage from a death cloud if they succeed at a DC 25 caster level check (roll once per cloud)."
freyar
Extradimensional Explorer
I no longer remember what I was thinking about with the Inky Doom CL DC! Hmmmm....
I like the revised Death Cloud. I am also happy to make the Death Cloud a death effect, but I'd like it to remain a poison. Can we word it something like "Death cloud ink is a supernatural poison and a magical death effect; abilities such as death ward will block all damage from a death cloud if they succeed at a DC 25 caster level check (roll once per cloud)." ?
I like the revised Death Cloud. I am also happy to make the Death Cloud a death effect, but I'd like it to remain a poison. Can we word it something like "Death cloud ink is a supernatural poison and a magical death effect; abilities such as death ward will block all damage from a death cloud if they succeed at a DC 25 caster level check (roll once per cloud)." ?
Cleon
Hero
How about:
A death cloud ink is both a supernatural poison and a magical death effect; a creature immune to death effects cannot be harmed by it, and abilities such as death ward will block all damage from a death cloud if they succeed at a DC 25 caster level check (roll once per cloud). Abilities that grant saving throw bonuses against poison or death attacks both apply to saving throws against a death cloud. A creature immune to poison but subject to death effects can be harmed by a death cloud, but whenever they attempt to save against the cloud they roll the saving throw twice and picks the best result.
