D&D 4E Kruthiks, Needlefang Drakes and Foulspawn in 4e MM

[frankthedm]

I think that confirms that the balance in the game has changed a lot. A carrion crawler in 3e is what, CR 3? Now it figures to be something that you fight at around 10th level. I'm guessing that pc's are much less powerful at 10th level in 4e than they were in 3e.

The crawler probably has a lot going for it than in 3e, but yes, 4e is reducing the damage output of PCs. The slaying of open ended power attack and the sanitizing of critical are good evidence of that. It is a big part of making sure combats last longer.

 

[Desdichado]

Why does that last bolded part bug me?

I guess it seems too heavy-handed for my tastes.

Huh? PC's actions actually having implications for future developments in the setting seems heavy-handed to you?

I consider myself the complete opposite of a heavy-handed GM; I'm almost rabid about not railroading, and letting the PC's determine the course of the campaign, not me and my pre-written notes.

But I'm also almost rabid about the idea that once the PC's do something, there are effects of what they do. If they follow one story hook, the NPCs related to that hook (especially the BBEG) react to their interference. If they leave a story hook, the threat comes to fruition because they didn't stop it.

I'm struggling here a bit with the idea that this is heavy-handed.

 

[Doug McCrae]

I'm struggling here a bit with the idea that this is heavy-handed.

Motivation by guilt trip seems heavy handed to me.

I've encountered it quite a bit as a player and I don't like it. PCs do what seems completely reasonable, DM pulls planned switcheroo - Aha! Your actions have unwittingly doomed the universe you dumbasses.

 

[Doug McCrae]

I thought the coming-of-age hook was fantastic, even if it was his least favourite.

I agreed with the writer, it was the weakest of the three. PCs didn't have a strong enough motivation to enter the dungeon.

 

[eleran]

Anyone else have any good plot hooks for that story?

I am always looking to steal be inspired.

 

[Darrell]

It is a big part of making sure combats last longer.

Which would be exactly what I don't want. I want combat over with ASAP. My group has been experimenting lately with an idea from Core Elements: simple opposed rolls to decide a winner & loser in any given combat. The amount of damage being dealt (to both sides) is really the only sticking point we run into.

If making combat last longer is a goal for 4e, that would be yet another reason for me not to go that route.

With regard to kruthiks and such being in the MM, if I were to go with 4e, I'd likely do the same thing I did with the 3e/3.5e MM...excise 90% of the critters completely.

Regards,
Darrell

 

[Klaus]

Which would be exactly what I don't want. I want combat over with ASAP. My group has been experimenting lately with an idea from Core Elements: simple opposed rolls to decide a winner & loser in any given combat. The amount of damage being dealt (to both sides) is really the only sticking point we run into.

If making combat last longer is a goal for 4e, that would be yet another reason for me not to go that route.

With regard to kruthiks and such being in the MM, if I were to go with 4e, I'd likely do the same thing I did with the 3e/3.5e MM...excise 90% of the critters completely.

Regards,
Darrell

The stated goal is to have combat last more rounds, but less time IRL.

 

[LostSoul]

I'm struggling here a bit with the idea that this is heavy-handed.

It's just that it seems unfair. You go and do something heroic, and the DM turns around and says you screwed it all up.

I'd be fine with it if it was handled at the player level, using cut scenes or talk away from the game. As a consequence that leads to more adventure, it's cool, but I don't like doing it without the consent of the players.

Or lots of hints and foreshadowing about how the choices of the players are leading to some badness in the future. That would be cool, too, but to spring something like that out of left field I just wouldn't like.

 

[Kesh]

Generally, when you raid someone's home, you can expect them to bring friends to knock on your door. I don't see how that's "out of left field."

 

[LostSoul]

Generally, when you raid someone's home, you can expect them to bring friends to knock on your door. I don't see how that's "out of left field."

I'm not objecting to the raid so much as I am objecting to springing it on the players out of left field. Like I said above, if it's clear to the players (however you want to get it across) that there will be (bad) consequences for their actions, that's cool.

Consequences without conscious choice is something I don't like.

Even if you had some old coot say, "Don't go in there, you'll stir up the (dire) hornet's nest" I would think that would be fine. (Or, even better, a cleric of some other god, who is against the Pelorian ritual, then you can introduce politics at home... that's cool.) Or out of game talk: "I'm going to have the gameworld to react to your choices, sometimes in ways that you won't expect and can't predict."

I guess I'm just talking about player buy-in. I guess I jumped the gun in assuming there wouldn't be the right level of buy-in when I read that blurb.