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D&D 5E L&L 3/11/2013 This Week in D&D

Axiie

First Post
Some of them just prefer attacking the darkness.

I can see that being a meme in the right circles.

I've been playing RPG's for a long time, kicking off with WoD, GURPS and a few indie titles at my local gaming store or with a Uni group. I did have two games of AD&D and enjoyed it massively, but it wasn't until a year ago I started playing D&D as my main focus, and when I jumped into it I found myself playing 4e. Yes, it was very different than the early editions. But it wasn't a bad game, it wasn't as if it felt it had 'sold out' or was shallower than my first experience (albeit a limited one). It was just different. At the end of the day, when I sat at the table and became the diplomatic barbarian searching for relics for his long kingdom, it didn't matter what rule system I was using. In the experiences I've had with D&D Next, I'm looking forward to it as both a DM and a possible player (yeah, 'cos I'll get that chance with my mates... not) despite being a '4e guy'.

All the edition wars boil down to is people protecting a small percentage of a much larger whole. It's blind loyalties that overlook the one crucial point; it's all the same game. Couple that with the hackability of Pen & paper RPG's, and the number of different varying types of D&D are about as numerous as there are gaming groups. Channelling any form of hostility to creators of those RPG's due to them creating a new edition is akin to booing and hissing a painter for creating a new landscape. The style, techniques and overall feeling of serenity from each painting is still there, just in a different way.

Now, one argument I can agree with is the availability of support for previous editions and the feeling that some players of a particular edition have of 'being abandoned'. I have a friend who is a devout 1e player, won't play in 4e (he has tried and disliked) and still prefers playing in his 1e games. He harbours no hostility towards WotC for bringing other editions out. He doesn't view it as them abandoning his demographic in the blistering sun of Athas. He's expressed his respect in many cases for the things they have created and understands that it's all part of the forward momentum of an inherently creative medium. What he would like to see though, is things like the DDI made available for the other editions to support the already established fanbases. Even though I don't play 1e, I can see his point and agree with him and I think it's something WotC should address at some stage, independently of any release schedules for upcoming products.

The unfortunate truth is, however, that as future products come closer to release, older editions will naturally dwindle and support for them will diminish. It's the natural way of creativity and more importantly, the business of the industry. What many assume is that this diminishing support is out of malice or evil, that the developers are demanding people shift to their new system, or stand alone and abandoned in the wastes of lost editions. That is the wrong way of approaching the situation. The resources of any company is limited, even one as big as WotC, and in order to concentrate those resources on ensuring their latest endeavour is as good as they can make it, they will have to pull resources away from other things. The lack of support is a by product as opposed to an opening move in the game of advancement. When people realise this and react accordingly to this, they might find themselves listened to more often. They may very well succeed in their spot check to find the lit candle.
 

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DEFCON 1

Legend
Supporter
A large percentage of players really shouldn't read the open playtest packets and instead just wait to see the whole game presented in 18 months times. They'd have a much happier year and a half and probably be quite tickled with how the game ends up playing for their particular style.
 

Iosue

Legend
I can see where 4e fans are coming in some respects, but not in others.

I'm pretty happy with how 5e is shaping up. It seems to be just the mix of old style B/X and 4e that I like. But even I feel that, while I don't find the L&Ls offensive, they are in many respects boring, vague, and uninformative. The feel very much like the mediocre ones that Monte Cook was putting out. And while I don't share with other 4e fans the feeling that WotC has abandoned the 4e player base and is consciously designing 5e to be the "anti-4e", I can certainly understand frustration that there hasn't been a lot for them, even in terms of promises. My impression is this is because they're very close to getting the core of the core, the "Basic" game locked down. Since Mearls did the big "Basic/Standard/Advanced" breakdown in L&L, his columns have focused pretty much on that Basic game. 2/11 was about how the rules of exploration would be optional, i.e., part of the Standard options, but not an integral part of the game you had to have. 2/18 was about simplifying healing for the Basic game, leaving such things as Hit Dice and alternate rules to Standard options. The articles since then have been vague discussion centered around finding a basic competency for characters, allowing for player-customized specialization, but without making the game too fiddly. While they've been ostensibly about the options that players will have in the Standard game, ultimately what they are really about is establishing a floor for PC competency and complexity that those (as yet unnamed, unspecified) options can build on. Unfortunately, perhaps because Mearls has grown busier as the Basic game nears completion, there's been a drop off in quality and specificity in the L&Ls, meaning not much new information, and not clear indications about what is "corest of the core", vs. what is "core in the sense of available for Standard players with their first purchase of the game".

While it's all well and good, even perfectly understandable, that Mearls might want to focus on the Basic game as it nears completion (the stronger the core is, the better the options that can be added to it), there are a lot of 4e fans who want to see something more than just the classical-type stuff. So what Mearls has to say doesn't really interest them -- they're champing at the bit for at least a look at 4e classes and races. I mean, heck, forget the Warlord, where's the Dragonborn? Surely another race doesn't require the same design effort as a whole new class? The Warlock was pretty 4e-ish, and was pulled backstage to get some work done on it, what's going on with that? Last we heard, magic systems were going to be come swappable, so DMs could go Vancian if they wanted that, or a little more 4e-style if they wanted that. What's going on with that? Where's the tactical module? They seemed pretty far with that late last year, but we haven't heard much about it, let alone seen a playtest version. Given that the latest new classes have been the Monk, Barbarian, and now the Druid, I think it's obvious they're moving from Core Four to Historic Also Starring classes, and the newer classes/races will come later. But even with that, I can understand frustration and impatience.

So it's not just they don't make it totally clear when they're talking about the Basic game, but they're not exactly leavening the Basic talk with any Standard stuff.

(One specific snarl I think that happened is Mearls' thoughts on healing in the core game made a lotta folks fear that the Warlord would not have healing capability, and the push for Warlord info led them to talk about it before they were really ready to introduce it, with the added bonus of seemingly fulfilling some 4e fans' worst fears. One overwhelming feeling I had from the recent podcast is they there's a lot of disagreement and debate among the design team about what a Warlord should look like. 4e fans want a 4e Warlord, but the design team's goal is not to provide straight mechanics and classes from various editions, but recreate the classes so that they are modular. So conceivably a 4e Warlord fan could create a Warlord he was happy with, but at the same time a 3e fan could create a Warlord he was happy with, and a 1e fan could create a Warlord he was happy with. Since there are few prior iterations of the Warlord from which the designers can work from, it's a tough nut to crack, and what they have is not satisfying to some of the designers and/or internal playtesters. Mearls tweeted about where the Warlord is now, but I would not be surprised to see it change before it's finally released for playtesting. Heck, before the Cleric was released it went through a phase where Turn Undead was a higher level spell. At any rate, if Mearls spent a little more time on the L&Ls and gave them a little more specificity, such FUD could at least be mitigated, if not avoided altogether.)

With regard to marketing, I didn't buy it when people said that they denigrated 3e in the run-up to 4e, and I don't buy it that they now doing it with 4e. In any edition change, one of the things they have to do is note what was found problematic with the previous edition, and how they are trying to fix it in the new one. Otherwise, why put out a new edition at all? Now, one natural outcome of that is the Gnome Effect. A seemingly slam dunk decision creates a huge backlash. Let's say that 4e players represent 50% of the D&D playing population that might conceivably move on to Next, 3.x/Pathfinder players make up 35%, and TSR-D&D players make up 15% (just to pull numbers out of a hat). Now let's look at 4e powers and assume that the 3.x/PF and the TSR players don't care about 4e powers, and that half of the 4e population are perfectly fine with an alternate system as long as they can still get the same feel as from their 4e games. That's 75% of the base if lose 4e powers vs. 50% if you keep them. That's a no brainer! But that 25% is going to be pissed, they are going to be vocal, and because D&D is played in groups rather than as individuals, that's going to have a disproportionate effect. And I'm not trying to pick on 4e or 4e fans here. The same was true in the change over to 3e, and in the change over to 4e.

Then there's this. Go into any rpg forum and ask "What's better? Moldvay Basic or Mentzer Basic?" The rules are virtually the same. But it won't be long before a Moldvay fan puts down Elmore art, or a Mentzer fan puts down Otus art, or respective layouts, or even notes the differences on the "Ages 10 & Up" notices. Yes, when the rules are the same, people will Edition War about presentation. Dragonsfoot even has separate forums for its Classic D&D, First Ed. AD&D, and 2nd Edition. Because even if you remove WotC D&D entirely from the discussion, people will still Edition War. If people identify with one edition over others, it's just human nature to desire to trumpet its merits, and likewise to take criticisms of it personally.

WotC has exacerbated this with its (mistaken, in hindsight) strategy of completely renovating the game every edition. I don't necessarily blame them; there were good reasons for each renovation at the time. But they've put themselves in a tough spot. But personally, I think they are doing what is perhaps the most sensible thing. Provide every edition for all of the die-hard hold-outs. Then for those who aren't die-hard, provide a variable-ruleset system that can emulate aspects of the other editions. Avail yourself of the history of support. Use the emulative qualities of the new edition to provide support for the older ones. It's the bucket theory all over again. TSR went through the expense of making too many separate buckets to catch all the raining money. With 3e they chose to kick those buckets over and make one big bucket. Then with 4e they kicked that bucket over and made a smaller big bucket. With 5e they're trying to make another big bucket to go with that one, and at the same time right all the buckets they previously kicked over.
 
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Nagol

Unimportant
1) You have a font colour that renders most of the post unintelligible on a dark background.

2) Obviously Holmes' Basic is better than either Moldovay or Metzer so the question is moot.
 

Iosue

Legend
Hmmmm.... I haven't even tried to change the font color. Perhaps I clicked on something by mistake... Is this showing up okay?
 


Nemesis Destiny

Adventurer
I didn't find this column to be particularly 'offensive' - just more of the same stuff we've been getting lately - vague and hard to see through, like the fog cloud spell he was referencing. Reading these columns lately puts me in mind of hearing one end of a telephone conversation and trying to piece together what's being discussed, or listening to someone talk from the other side of a door or wall. I'm straining to glean any useful context or information from it.

Meh.
 

GX.Sigma

Adventurer
I didn't find this column to be particularly 'offensive' - just more of the same stuff we've been getting lately - vague and hard to see through, like the fog cloud spell he was referencing. Reading these columns lately puts me in mind of hearing one end of a telephone conversation and trying to piece together what's being discussed, or listening to someone talk from the other side of a door or wall. I'm straining to glean any useful context or information from it.

Meh.

It's not any kind of hidden message (unlike last week, where he was really trying [and failing] to say something important), it's just a diary of the things he's been working on and thinking about this week.

On the subject of spells, he's thinking about making individual spells more focused because the casting system lets you be more versatile.

On the subject of complexity at higher levels, they're thinking about giving the players a choice between new abilities and improving old ones (which will also make classed NPCs easier to run, and make dead levels strictly opt-in). He also says that complexity will be a big focus of the playtest after they get out the content they're working on right now.
 

Raith5

Adventurer
A large percentage of players really shouldn't read the open playtest packets and instead just wait to see the whole game presented in 18 months times. They'd have a much happier year and a half and probably be quite tickled with how the game ends up playing for their particular style.

While much of the feedback is not constructive, the underlying point of the 4th ed critics of DDN is that WOTC systematically undersells the insights and ideas of 4th ed. The 4th ed folks care about this because they want a game they can buy in 18 months! At the moment it appears that WOTC are basing a game on early and 3rd ed playstyles and purposely ignoring 4th ed playstyles and fanbases. This means that the avowed purpose of breadth and modularity in DDN is not being achieved - thus the frustration.
 

Nemesis Destiny

Adventurer
It's not any kind of hidden message (unlike last week, where he was really trying [and failing] to say something important), it's just a diary of the things he's been working on and thinking about this week.

On the subject of spells, he's thinking about making individual spells more focused because the casting system lets you be more versatile.
Yes, I see that, but his example was pretty vague. It wasn't enough to really see what he means by that, and so not enough to determine whether or not I think it's a good idea.

On the subject of complexity at higher levels, they're thinking about giving the players a choice between new abilities and improving old ones (which will also make classed NPCs easier to run, and make dead levels strictly opt-in). He also says that complexity will be a big focus of the playtest after they get out the content they're working on right now.
Again, I read what he wrote, but not seeing the full idea in the context of the rest of the game, or even more specific examples is not particularly helpful.

So, meh.
 

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