[L&L] Balancing the Wizards in D&D

[Hautamaki]

Seems to me like more posters than not are forgetting or ignoring the fact that 1st level wizards in 1-3 were practically unplayably bad characters. Aside from 1 or 2 weak spells that aren't even as powerful as basically any weapon and a higher will save they were equivalent in every way to a peasant. Wizards did not catch up to the other classes until level 5 at the soonest and even then they were underpowered. Wizards did not become more powerful than mundane classes until you hit level 13-15. And they were never really more powerful than Clerics or Druids anyways tbh.

No it was the underpowered and frankly unfun low level wizard that I've had the biggest problem with in my nearly 20-year D&D playing career.

I understand the gripe with at-will cantrips though. It waters down the point of the wizard, which is to be able to not only tactically manage options but to strategically manage resources over the course of whole adventuring day. The problem was that the wizard had far too few resources at level 1 and far too many by level 15.

So why not just figure out how many spells total you want the wizard to cast in a day. Could be 10, could be 20, could be 30, playtest it and figure it out. And then give all wizards from level 1 to level (30?) that number of spells. Gaining levels doesn't gain you more total spells; it just allows you to cast more high level spells. Like so:

lvl 1 wizard: 2 level 1 spells, 18 cantrips
lvl 2 wizard: 3 level 1 spells, 17 cantrips
lvl 3 wizard: 1 level 2 spell, 3 level 1 spells, 16 cantrips
...
lvl 30 wizard: 3/3/3/3/3/3/3/3/3/+3 cantrips

*cantrips could always be cast without being prepared using a higher level spell slot if you wish, and after a certain level this could also apply to level 1 spells or even higher.

 

[The Shadow]

Let me just put in a word for those players like me (who, while a minority, are I think not a tiny one) who played the 1e low-level wizard - sorry, Magic-User - and chafed at its limitations.

I'm all for some at-will magic for the wizard. I think it will be a welcome addition to the class, and will help replicate many fantasy tropes as well.

For those who enjoy the low-level M-U experience, more power to you - don't take at-wills. I'm quite confident there will be some way to trade them out.

 

[DMKastmaria]

Seems to me like more posters than not are forgetting or ignoring the fact that 1st level wizards in 1-3 were practically unplayably bad characters.

I think you're forgetting that not everyone is going to agree with your opinion. A lot of people have fun playing low level MU's with earlier editions.

There were also a lot of people who did complain, rather loudly, about 1e and 2e wizards. Alas, the 3e design team listened to those complaints, removing many of the restrictions on casters. Thus, creating more complaints. Which were listened to, as well. Thus, creating more complaints...

 

[Hautamaki]

I think you're forgetting that not everyone is going to agree with your opinion. A lot of people have fun playing low level MU's with earlier editions.

There were also a lot of people who did complain, rather loudly, about 1e and 2e wizards. Alas, the 3e design team listened to those complaints, removing many of the restrictions on casters. Thus, creating more complaints. Which were listened to, as well. Thus, creating more complaints...

The problem with 3e is that they removed the wrong restrictions. Wizards at level 1 were still garbage; the restrictions they removed were the things that kept high level wizards somewhat at bay.

Your problem as a level 1 wizard wasn't that it's too hard to cast magic missile. It was that it's impossible to cast it more than a couple times a day.

 

[DMKastmaria]

Your problem as a level 1 wizard wasn't that it's too hard to cast magic missile. It was that it's impossible to cast it more than a couple times a day.

No. That was Your problem. And its ok that it was Your problem.

My 1st level MU's, tackled wererats, threw flaming oil, ran from monsters, smashed people over the head with beer mugs, or did whatever else a thinking, resourceful person might do, when out of spells. And it was fun!

It's ok that it was Your problem. I only take issue with your claiming it was mine.

 

[drothgery]

Really, I don't think mechanics for interrupting spellcasting belong in D&D (they have been, prior to 4e, but that didn't mean they were a good fit, just there at first and maintained due to inertia more than anything else). They belong in the kind of game where melee has active parrying rules.

 

[Lanefan]

Polymorph can be a very, very powerful spell, particularly in 3e, but in earlier editions too, for its level. Polymorph self into a Behir, attack and grapple a medium target (with your size and strength bonuses, you're almost never going to lose a grapple check) and shred the target with impunity. Pin and rake until it dies, or, for more fun, just swallow it and it dies.

Simplest limit I ever found for this: you can only change into a mundane non-magical creature. Polymorph into an eagle? Fine. A rat? Fine. A horse? Fine. A Unicorn or Centaur or Behir? Not so much...

First off, we all know there's going to be a "core" to 5e, which ideally will be rather unique in it's own right and not simply a retroclone of some given edition's first few books. Any modularity will be to swing the game more in one direction of another, but no matter which way things go, they will be built upon 4e's CORE, which will likely be some form of compromise and learning from multiple editions.

Are you sure about this bit I bolded, or are you merely hoping?

Really, I don't think mechanics for interrupting spellcasting belong in D&D (they have been, prior to 4e, but that didn't mean they were a good fit, just there at first and maintained due to inertia more than anything else). They belong in the kind of game where melee has active parrying rules.

Removing spell interruption takes away one of the balance mechanisms working against not just wizards but all casters. And as the focus seems to be on in one way or another reining them all in, why would you do this?

Lanefan

 

[Stalker0]

Certainly, a scroll with slow, ritual knock is not the same thing as a rogue getting you through the door in a hurry or a wizard dedicating a precious, scarce regular spell slot to doing the same.

The 3 of them stared at the wrought iron door laid before them. The scratches on the door mirrored the axe in the fighter's hand, his chest heaving with fatigue at the recent series of heavy blows that had eluded success.

The rogue flittered with the broken pieces of his favorite lockpick, frustrated by failure and by the future loss of coin its replacement would require.

The billowing cloak strode past them both, a hood swept away revealing ancient looking eyes that gazed at the door with purpose.

A slight hand gesture, an invisible nudge, and the sound of paper against leather case the only sound echoing through the forgotten hallway.

The rolled paper slid into hand, a pale white, forged by a ghost rather than a man one might say.

With a heavy sigh, the wizard unrolled his prize upon the door. The paper fought him as any rolled paper would, but an inaudible word held it fast, and it greeted the door's iron as a good friend long separated.

The wizard turned to his compatriots, noticing right away the words forming on the rogues lips. He smiled knowingly, placed his hand upon the halfling's shoulders, and said "an hour". He pushed the hood back upon his head once more, and retreated down the corridor. With a look to each other, the fighter and rogue joined their friend...


Time enough passed, and the trio returned to the iron door. Yet did iron remain? For now the door was as white as the paper placed upon it.

The wizard once again walked smoothly to the door, raised his hand and pulled off his glove. He placed his hand upon the parchment, and each fingertip glowed in turn. He pulled the hand back, and curled each finger slowly into his palm. The glow of colors mixed with each other, until a shining white emerged as pure as any light known.

With a strong motion, he set his knuckles to their task, a single rap that echoed around and through the barred entranceway.

With a groan, like an old man awakening from slumber, the door moved away and back, opening and revealing another corridor...and further possibilities.

The wizard folded his arms and leaned against the entranceway. Another smile, he opened the hand again. Now covered in what appeared to be black soot, the hand was open, welcoming....as the arm stretched into the doorway.

He looked to his friends, and then both gave the same sigh long before his words were spoken. But speak them he did, speak them he always would....

"After you".

 

[billd91]

As a DM, you get to do that because you get to set the campaign parameters. Fair enough. I can choose to play or not. But, as a fellow player? Please worry about your character and I'll take care of mine, thankyouverymuch.

It's a group endeavor. If I'm trying to play in a reasonably immersive LOtR manner I don't necessarily want Bugs Bunny, Buddy Weiser, or Doctor Strange sitting at the same table. We should work toward being on the same wavelength as far as style.

This is why I think the idea of different players at the same table on different rule modules will face stiff challenges.

 

[Falling Icicle]

Overall I'm pleased with what I read in this article. The greater emphasis on at-will cantrips and attacks, with fewer spell slots for the really big spells, makes vancian casting much more palatable for me. They seem to really understand both sides of pre-4e wizard's problems: that wizards were far too weak at low levels (solved by adding at-will spells) and far too powerful at high levels (solved by reducing the number of spell slots at high levels and not having spells scale with level). I'm very encouraged by most of what Mearls had to say here.

I do have a few concerns though. First of all, if Wizards are going to be relying on at-will cantrips for so much of their power, I really hope they they are at least equivalent in damage per round to a fighter or other class making their at-will attacks. I have no interest whatsoever in playing a wizard who does insignificant damage compared to everyone else except for the scarce few times a day I can afford to do something "big." And no, I don't think it's unbalanced at all for wizards at-will spells to keep up with fighter damage on top of having a few powerful daily attacks, because wizards have many drawbacks that fighters do not, and I fully expect most of those drawbacks to be in 5e (such as having lower hit points, not being able to wear armor by default, having powers that can be countered or dispelled by other magic users, etc).

Also, I think the idea of scrolls using a spell slot is a terrible idea, IMO. How are non-magic using classes like rogues supposed to use scrolls? I also am very concerned by the hint that we're going to be regressing to wands as spell-storage devices instead of implements. That was one of the things that 4e did right! Sure, let wands contain a daily use of a spell or some such, but their primary purpose should be to serve as a focus to a caster's spells, not as "50 scrolls rolled up in a disposable stick."

I was also puzzled by the "Spellcasting is Dangerous" part. Casting always was dangerous, or is this a hint that maybe attacks of opportunity are going to be gone in this edition? And why should my spell screw up because I was hit by an attack earlier in the round? In reality, any type of action can be interrupted by hitting someone or inflicting enough pain. Fighters will get knocked off balance and be unable to complete their next sword swing, for example. Watch any real fight, or even dramatic ones in movies, and you'll see that this is a huge part of combat. If you aren't going to have rules for interrupting a fighter's attacks, it's silly to do it to wizards, especially when you've already addressed the issues that made them unbalanced before.

And (to add to the chorus of other people who have already asked this question), what about rituals?