L&L Turning & Churning

[I'm A Banana]

The space you need in the monster stat block is the same. Why do you agree with radiant damage and not with turn undead?

Because radiant damage is a broad resource that many characters could conceivably tap, while turn undead is a narrowly specific rule that not every campaign will have.

What if my game doesn't have clerics? What if my clerics worship a god of the earth and so don't have turn undead?

Radiant damage, meanwhile, comes into play in other circumstances aside from one limited class ability.

It would be kind of like adding a bit to every statblock that said, "If the druid attacks this creature while wildshaped, it has X special effect." Or "If the wizard hits this creature with magic missile, it has X special effect."

Not a good idea as a general rule, though absolutely fine when you can control for the characters who interface with it.

 

[GSHamster]

Aside from sutras, all of the aspects that you list are characteristics of the creatures themselves, similar to how vampires fear crosses. For example, ghosts from Supernatural can't cross an unbroken salt line. You don't have to be a faithful preacher to utilize that property, you just need knowledge of that fact.

Interesting traits like that aren't bad, and can add an element of depth to a monster type. Turn undead, however, is a property of the cleric rather than the creature, and that's where I take issue. I think the space in the monster block, where Mearls' suggest adding a unique turning result, would be much better utilized adding a unique, exploitable property of the creature (that the party can utilize even without a cleric).

I agree with this. The main issue is if Turn Undead should be a power of the cleric class, or a weakness of the monster.

In D&D, it has been a power of the cleric. In stories, though, it's often a weakness of the undead. Mearls is proposing something in-between, a generic power of the cleric that maps to a specific weakness of the monster.

There are advantages and disadvantages to both sides. If it is a weakness of the monster, (like daylight or running water for vampires) that means every monster entry that could be affected must account for it. But the advantage here is that every character could use it. Any fighter could use a holy symbol to hold the vampire at bay, just like any class can use a silver weapon to hurt werewolves.

If it's a power of the cleric class, that means that the info for it is contained with the cleric, and not the monster. But this means that the power can be repurposed, with a cleric of a specific god using the power in a different manner, maybe using it against elementals, or to heal, or some other special ability.

 

[avin]

As [MENTION=22779]Hussar[/MENTION] said, in large encounters, having to track who's fleeding is awful... are they hiding? Will return? Will run forever?

I would change "run" for "cower in fear, at same place", even when hit.

 

[I'm A Banana]

As [MENTION=22779]Hussar[/MENTION] said, in large encounters, having to track who's fleeding is awful... are they hiding? Will return? Will run forever?

My preferred way to do handle this, if you go for outright fleeing: it's a save-or-die effect. You don't worry about them returning -- their departure has been balanced for. If the DM wants, they can, in a different encounter, and if you don't care to, they don't have to.

I think I'd prefer the base ability just to keep them at bay, though -- they must flee from close range with the cleric, but they can still harass the party from just outside of that range. The cleric must sustain that field that keeps them at bay.

 

[Minigiant]

I am for the "make it a combat action that everyone can do but only succeed on a nat 20 except for clerics, priests, and maybe paladins" option.

Anyone can turn Undead but they get a -10 penalty.

 

[Someone]

I had the feeling that something wasn’t right when reading the article and I believe I finally know what it is.

In fiction, the undead that’s turned or held at bay most often is the vampire, and that’s a singular vampire weakness that never was extended to all undead. Demons are exorcised, ghosts banished when you solve their worldly issues, the mummy in the movie was scared of cats, etc. However I don’t recall many zombie movies where a priest forced them to flee by brandishing a cross.

What I’m trying to say is that, perhaps, those things should be individual monster weaknesses that could be used to give them a bit more flair or fluff, instead of yet another mechanic to a very core class that should be, in its most basic form, as simple as possible.

And also that generalizing a vampire weakness to all undead perhaps makes as much sense as making all of them allergic to garlic.

Edit: looks like Fanaelialae already said more or less the same.

 

[Dausuul]

IMO, the purpose of Turn Undead should be to buy time. It doesn't win encounters; it simply holds the monsters at bay while you figure out how to deal with them or beat a hasty retreat. And the longer you try to hold it, the greater the risk that it fails.

 

[Kannik]

I always think of turning as being the holy channel of a deity and being like a beacon of divine providence.

You know your brain's not quite firing on all cylinders yet when you read the above as "... being like a bacon of divine providence."

And I'm not even a big fan of bacon...

</thread hijack>

apologies,

Kannik
(though quite frankly I think there's a marketing opportunity here... )

 

[Klaus]

IMO, the purpose of Turn Undead should be to buy time. It doesn't win encounters; it simply holds the monsters at bay while you figure out how to deal with them or beat a hasty retreat. And the longer you try to hold it, the greater the risk that it fails.

Then make Turn Undead a spell, akin to Sanctuary (the iconic "time out" cleric spell).

 

[Lanefan]

I've never had a problem with the way 1e handles undead turning - a simple d20 roll vs. a table - yes, a table; tables are not the Ultimate Evil some seem to think they are - charted to undead type. I give the roll a Cha. modifier*, and it's easy enough to slot non-standard undead types in on the fly if their write-up doesnt already tell you where they fit on the chart.

* - I've also introduced as a new magic item holy symbols that are enchanted to give a bonus on turn attempts

An updated version would likely not say "turns as a Wight" but would give each undead a turn rating - a Wight might have in its write-up "Turn 4" meaning you look at line 4 on the table when a Cleric tries to turn one.

Another thing I've not seen mentioned yet is Evil Clerics controlling udead instead of turning them. This used the same mechanic in 1e.

Tracking which undead have fled due to turn (and thus are likely to come trundling back in a few minutes) is trivially easy - just take their tokens or minis (if you use such) and put them to one side, still on the board. And if you happen to forget them it simply means those undead didn't find their way back to the battle and will probably be met later instead.

And yes, turning is just a means to buy time and give yourselves a chance to prepare for when it-they return. The Wight flees down the passage - toss a light down there and waste it with missile fire when it comes back...

All that said, I also have it that if you badly fail a turn attempt the undead will spiral on that Cleric and ignore all other foes...

Lan-"not everyone plays goody-goodies"-efan

P.S. EDIT: Turning should be an at-will ability, full-round action.