Lack of Fast Heroes (rant)

[Starfox]

4E has only three primary Dexterity classes - the assassin, rogue, and monk, all strikers. This is 3 out of 24 classes, only Constitution has less. It has a couple of classes with dexterity builds: avenger, barbarian, druid, fighter, ranger, seeker, sorcerer, wizard. All of these are strikers or strikerish. There are no dexterity leaders at all, and few (and strikerish) controllers or defenders.

I find this a big lack. Around here, the fast hero concept is more or less worshipped; everyone wants to be one to one degree or another.

This seem to be slowly improving. Of the classes mentioned above, several are new or still under development. But there is still no Dexterity leaders.

 

[Nichwee]

TBH the idea of a Dex-based Leader doesn't make that much sense to me - unless it was the leader of a bow division.

Leaders are about imspiring others and shouting orders rather than doing stuff themselves.
This to me seems to me a mental skill (for tactics) and a personality/presense thing to know what to say and how to say it.
The use of Str for a "lead from the front" type also makes some sense but a stand back and direct things leader isn't going to need a physical stat imo. He would be about knowing what to do and what to say (Int/Wis/Cha).

Dex builds are generally about being swift and precise, so your attacks are done before anyone can react. A leader wants the opposite. He wants the enemy and his allies to see his attacks and fear them/take heart from them. So Dex based fighting isn't really Leader-y imo.
It is also why the Dex-based fighter becomes more striker than normal. He is about getting in the strike and getting out again/getting in lots of strikes rather than "Me here, you deal with me" tactics that the defenders normally employ.

As for fast heroes. What do you mean? High initiative?
As this is the only area where Dex can be considered 'fast' that isn't done by something else too/instead. Rangers are the 'fast moving' ones with lots of 'shift as you go' options that often trigger on Wisdom. AC and Ref can be Int-based for fast reactions.

 

[Dice4Hire]

Out of curiosity, what would be your concept for one?

 

[fba827]

I realize you prefaced this as "rant" so you know it's not entirely a logic based topic. But it does make me wonder a couple things ...

* Does there need to be symetry in the ability score-role matrix?

* Is there a concept for one that you had in mind without it feeling obviously shoehorned in?

* Or, I guess a more general question -- which should come first, the concept or the mechanical requirements?

My personal bias = I am a concept guy. But I recognize that others are equally valid in prefering mechanics first and then concept second, so I am asking the above questions not to be snippy, but out of genuine curisoity.

 

[Walking Dad]

You forgot the Archer Ranger build (and now are 2 con based classes -> warlock (as much as ranger) and battlemind).

 

[DracoSuave]

When you start your topic by naming 11 classes that use Dexterity as a build option, you defeat your goal of trying to convince anyone that classes don't use Dexterity as a build option.

You'll notice Strength also has the same issue, and yet no one seems to care that it gets under used.

In fact it has MORE of an issue, with only sorcerers using Strength as a possible secondary. Otherwise, it's Strength or not at all.

 

[Infiniti2000]

I think you exaggerate when you say "big." It's small, even tiny, compared to Strength as DracoSuave points out. Similar to others above, I find it nonexistent. Your comment that a "fast hero" concept is worshipped somehow equates to a fast leader is a non sequitur.

 

[Neonchameleon]

The fast leader is the swashbuckler. And should have Charisma as primary, dexterity as secondary. Probably a sub-build of Bard. (Arcane Power 2, hopefully).

 

[Mengu]

I play a Warlord (soon to get quickdraw), granting +2 initiative for everyone at heroic +4/5 initiative at paragon. We have a Half-elf, +1 initiative to everyone but himself, a Wizard with improved initiative, a Rogue and an archer Ranger. I'm still looking for a Helm of Battle. We go fast. Don't tell me leaders are slow. The ranger and rogue have plenty of mobility powers to increase their speed. Fighter has Tide of Iron to keep surging on. Between wolfpack tactics, knight's move, etc my warlord can keep people moving. So both from an initiative and mobility perspective, I'd say the warlord can add a lot to make a party fast.

Other leaders have ways to help out in these departments too. Bards have Synchronicity, Clerics have Divine Oracle, Shamans have Stormhawk Vigilance and Seasons' Herald, Ardents have Talaric Strategist. Deva clerics and Shamans can have super high initiative if they spend 1 feat on it. Not to mention other classes can help a whole party too, Our Ranger can cancel surprise for half the party. When our wizard dazes people, I feel our whole party can surge over the enemy and surround them with ease.

A group that wants to be fast certainly has plenty of options. Dexterity is only one of many factors that contribute to the virtual speed of a party.

 

[Verision]

Title: "Lack of Fast Heroes (rant)"

First Post Content: There aren't enough Dex based classes

Question: What the heck does Dex have to do with speed?

Answer: ?